Transcript of AE 977 - Language Learning, Traveling, Dating South Americans, and Identity | Kyrin Down

G'day, you mob. What's going on? Welcome to this interview episode of the Aussie English podcast. Today I have the second part of the interview that I did with a True-Blue Queenslander, Brisbanite, banana bender, Kyrin Down.

So, Kyrin was on the podcast recently where we were talking about him studying mining engineering at university, how he then went on to work for Rio Tinto and then how he ended up becoming a bit of a minimalist and travelling the world. In today's episode, we dive a little bit deeper into his language learning, he learnt Spanish whilst he was travelling around South America and Central America. He's also learning German now.

We talk about travel, obviously. Dating South Americans, he and I had that in common, at least when he was dating a Colombian. And then we talk a bit about identity. Okay, so without any further ado, guys, smack the bird and I give you Kyrin Down.

Yeah, but- Man, let's move on to travel and languages, if you're up for staying on for a little bit longer. Sorry, I know I've kept you...

Hell yeah, man. I was on a friend's podcast the other day and we went for 3 hours 51 minutes, so.

Oh, man. Challenge accepted.

How much time you got tonight?

Yeah. Probably not that long, but we can keep going until the internet kills us or you get bored.

No. I definitely won't get bored. If we're talking about language and travelling, then I can be here for hours.

So, what happened? Tell us what was going through your head. You were obviously in the mining industry. You had it kind of made, but it was burning you out. I think you were sort of saying it was like, you know, there was a- The high churn over rate. How did you go from being a miner in Mackay or near Mackay, I assume at the end there, to then travelling the world for 14 months?

Yeah. So, I read a book a long time ago called 'A Dead Bat in Paraguay' and it's by this American guy who would- He was like a pickup artist. So, this was sort of in that, you know, phase of self-improvement and stuff like that.

The game.

Yeah, the game. And he was a really funny guy and so gone off the rails, I would say, in a certain sense nowadays, because I still sort of keep in touch, but like in touch of what he's up to. I never actually really met him at all.

But he had this book where it was him and he went to South America and he started in Venezuela and would travel down, travel through Peru, Bolivia, crossed into, you know, Argentina, Chile, the sort of like 's' curve down through South America. I guess that route. And he was like trying to pick up the girls and he couldn't do it.

Like he was trying to learn Spanish, he was really struggling with it, he'd get like intestinal bugs, you know, got robbed and was a hypochondriac and was sort of like had all of these things happening to him. And it was essentially like a travel journey through that. And I read that when I was 16, and I just went, yeah, man, I want to do that. That sounds really cool.

I want to get sick in South America.

Yeah. Yeah. So, that was just in my head for a long, long time and- Yeah, so that was always like part of my plan to do that, you know, a late Gap Year, I guess, because I wouldn't have been emotionally ready to do that at, you know, 20 or 21 or, you know, God knows, 17 or 18 like some people do. So...

That's nuts, right? The idea of a gap year being that you finish high school and then you take a year off and travel or work overseas. I think a lot of the people I know went to England or America where obviously the cultural divide wasn't very big, and they could just get a job and slide straight into society. But yeah, I can't imagine straight out of high school just being like, I'm going to travel South America by myself for a year.

Yeah, there's a different breed. There's some people out there who can do that. So no, I- Yeah. So, I quit my work and was just like, oh, came back home into Brisbane, was here for a little bit just working on myself and had some family stuff to deal with. And then, yeah, just it was around mid-2018. Just had bought a ticket at the start of the year and then flew off into Chile and, yeah, then began my adventure and I was-

It was going to be just South America, but it ended up being like, I guess the whole of Latin America.

Far out. So, did you learn Spanish prior to that, or it was during that period that you were sort of gotten a bit of an interest into languages and other cultures and everything?

Yeah, I tried to- I had a bit, like I used the Pimsleur course for a bit, for Spanish.

That's better than just jumping into Duolingo. So, that's a little bit more thorough.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That was helpful. So, when I arrived there, I probably had the basics to be like, you know, where's the bathroom? But I couldn't understand the past tense, for example, I couldn't use it, certainly. And- I had just enough, just enough to be able to get from one location to another, but, you know, that was scary as hell, it wasn't like, you know, having a nice conversation here. It was extremely stressful, racking the brains.

It's funny how those early times learning a language, it's kind of like, it's the adrenaline junkie part. When you have those first conversations and you're like, how long can I pretend to be good at this? How long until he asks me a question where I'm just going to be like, I don't know what he said. I don't know how to respond. How do I get out of this situation?

For sure...

I told my wife, my go to there- Sorry. My go to there is always just say, yeah, that's it. I remember we walked into some Woolworth's and there was a guy there who had a really thick accent and he said something to me and, yeah, he was laughing his head off and I saw that he said something that he thought was really funny. And I was like, well, I don't want to just burn this guy and look at him like I'm confused, which I was.

So, I was just like, haha that's it, dude. That's it. And he was like, yeah, he gets it. And my wife afterwards was like, what the fuck did he say? I didn't hear any of that. And I'm like, I have no idea. But that's just it. But just go with the, "that's it". And it's always a, it gets you out of jail free.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. The same thing in Spanish would be like, "Claro". Just like, yeah.

I think in Portuguese it'll be, "É isso. É isso, cara."

Yeah. I'm starting to learn German and I think it'd be, genau, which is like, 'exactly' or 'precisely'.

Genau.

Genau.

Oh, man. So, yeah. You did- You learnt Spanish when you were there then as well and got to a pretty good level?

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, number one tip for me for learning Spanish is get a girlfriend or partner or whatever. That...

It seems to be such a cliche. How did that actually work for you? And I mean, you know, to be fair, it kind of happened to me, too, with my wife and my Brazilian definitely got a lot better. But- This- You're the guest on the podcast. How did you go? Was that the goal? You were like, all right, I've got Pimsleur down, so now it's just like... And I'm like, how do I find a girlfriend?

And then be like, all right, now Spanish is really going to take off.

Yeah. I actually met a guy who was the one who was, like, really pressing for that for me when I was 2 months in or something like that.

As in trying to get you to get a girlfriend?

He was saying like, no, that's how I got to a really good level. He was at a, you know, near fluency sort of level. And I was asking him, like, you know, how much do you study? Because I was travelling, but I was- I'm pretty disciplined in a lot of ways. So, like when I was travelling, I was, you know, at least an hour- A day worth of grammar or writing down on books.

I've just got books and books filled with all the sentences I tried to create and grammar things and stuff like that.

To pause you there, I'm so jealous of people learning Spanish because Portuguese has zero resources. Zero resources...

I heard you talking about this recently with the language...

It's fucking annoying because you're like, Spanish is everywhere. It must be with probably French and Italian the most- How would you say? Like it's... ...Book written about language, yeah, that you have the countless different books to do grammar exercises. Portuguese has like one and it's like wrong. Everything in it, my wife looked at it and was just like, wrong. Wrong. No one says that. No one would ever say that.

And I'm like, uh, I'll just learn by speaking. But yeah. Anyway, sorry. So, you went through, and you were very disciplined doing grammar exercises and everything. That obviously gave you the base when you were travelling.

Yeah, for sure. And so then- I tried as well to just speak it, you know, when I was going to the hostels, even if they spoke English at the front desk, I'll be like, no, please. Let me try this. I know it's not going to be that pleasant for you, but...

That's when you just pretend to be Russian, dude.

Yeah. Yeah. That's probably the way.

I always said to everyone, I'm always, like, just pretend to be Russian. No one's just going to whip out the, I speak Russian fluently, mate. Especially in the middle of, you know- Maybe in Argentina, there's a few places I know they speak Russian because there's some Russian towns. But that's my go to.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so- Yeah. Once again, like I always said, I'm never going to get in like a long-distance relationship. And that's- I've learnt now in life to like not say things like that, I'm never going to X because that inevitably ends up happening. So, yeah, I- Yeah. Just met this girl when I was in Argentina and she was from Colombia and she was sort of, you know, studying there.

So, I always wanted to go to Colombia, and she was going back home over Christmas, which would be in, you know, 3 months' time. So, I was sort of like, oh, okay, like, you know, a very... ...In the future sort of thing, like, we'll meet up again.

Sorry, I lost you there. You very quickly...?

You there?

Yeah, sorry. You very quickly...?

Yeah, so she- Yeah, met her there and then sort of travelled back and forth. So, it was one of those ones where it was like, you know, I didn't want to particularly fall into a long-distance relationship, but, man, she was an amazing girl, so it ended up happening. And then, yeah, just more motivation to learn it as well, because we weren't together the whole time.

So, when I was in Mexico in Guatemala, it was like, you know, I'm meeting her in a while. Her English was perfect. She actually made me feel- Not feel, but it was like she could speak, you know, English pretty much perfectly fluently, Spanish obviously fluently, and then had like Italian and French and was learning Latin of all things just for fun.

Son of a bitch.

God damn. Like never have I felt so inadequate in terms of your like mental capacity, just being around her was like, uh, crap.

Wow, but it's a bit of a cheat. I think once you've gotten one romantic language down, especially if it's their native language, the rest of them kind of fall pretty easily.

Yeah, I was watching something on Netflix, and it was about a- Like this soccer match/football/like bare knuckle boxing thing that- I didn't catch which country it was in initially. And I was listening to it, and I was like, oh, God damn my Spanish is terrible. Like, I can only understand half of what they're saying. And then it turned out it was in Italy. So, I was listening to Italian.

I went, oh, like, okay, I'm sort of half got Italian now without even trying.

Well, you just hear the root words, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Even if you don't- Like cos a lot of the romantic languages have these inflections on the ends of words, especially verbs to show which pronoun they're associated with and what the tense is. But as soon as you kind of get the root words, it's kind of like you just, as long as you can make it out in their accent that they have. Your kind of like, oh, okay, he's talking about walking outside or something. So...

Yeah.

It's- I always found it amazing that I think there's a directional thing with Portuguese and Spanish where Brazilians, I think, have an easier time of hearing and understanding Spanish.

They do. It's way, way easier.

Yeah, then in the other way round, and I think from what I've heard is that Spanish has a lot fewer vowels and Brazilian Portuguese has a lot more of these nasal vowels and everything like that that make it a little easier because they have a repertoire of more and they're just getting less. Whereas the Spanish speakers are going to be like, whoa. Like what are all these extra sounds?

Yeah, that's what it's like for me when I meet Brazilians. Like it almost sounds Arabic in a way. It's like, oh...

Yeah.

...I'm not getting this.

Well, it was funny. I remember always being in love with Spanish. I never really learnt it but loving the accent. And then I remember when I first started learning Portuguese, I was like, God damn, this language is like Italian with its... The nasal vowels and the fact that that has this kind of rhythm to it where- I've forgotten the name for it. But the emphasis is always on the last second, last or third last syllable of a word.

So, it'll be "dicionário", you know, and it smacked me in the face, you know, it was something that you really noticed when you're first learning the language because you don't hear the meaning, you're just hearing the sounds. And I was like, this is so ugly. Spanish is so good with it's like...

And now it's like the complete inverse where now I'm like, oh my God, Portuguese has so much emotion in it when people are speaking and, you know, this kind of feeling to it that I can't portray- I can't feel in English and French would be my next sort of strongest language. But that's almost even more flat...

Yeah.

...Then English is and now I hear Spanish and I'm like, oh, it feels emotionless. It feels like it's kind of flat. But it's so interesting how when you- Before you understand and can speak the language and just get the meaning from it and understand why emphasis is used in a certain way and everything like that, you get this sort of, I think a lot of the time people don't like that feeling or that sound.

But then as soon as you get to a certain level of fluency and depth with the language, you can absolutely fall in love with it, no matter what it sounds like or what features it has.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And that's funny because like I would say, Spanish for me is way more emotive than English. For example, listening to like their songs and sort of more poetry type things, not exactly descriptive of emotions. Because I read a couple of books of Gabriel Garcia Marquez from Colombia and in Spanish and like one of them was the story of a shipwrecked sailor.

And it's just a really sort of like dry accounting. So, it's sort of descriptive in a way, but not descriptive of emotions and of beautiful things. It was descriptive of his like day on day, and I just went like, man, this is not like the best- Spanish should not be used in this way. Spanish should be used... ...Me telling one of like the, you know, the greatest authors of Latin America to the- Nah, that's not how you should write it.

But yeah, there's one of his other books, cien años de soledad, a Hundred Years of Solitude. Like that's where he really uses it, in that sort of...

Sorry, creating that atmosphere?

...Atmosphere of nostalgia and just, you know, the emotions of the people, the feeling in the air, rather than describing the landscape or describing the events of the day.

What's it like learning South American Spanish, too? Have you compared it to European Spanish? And I guess the deeper thing I want to get at here, because I haven't done much dabbling in the area of European Portuguese because it kind of scares me. It's that they use the schwa, and it's very much- It's like for me- It's like hearing Russian. It's very difficult for me to understand.

So, it would be like someone, I guess, learning English and then going to Scotland and trying to get used to the Glaswegian accent or something. It's just, I need to put in the time, put in the effort. What was the point that I was trying to get to, though? Once I really dived deep into consuming TV shows in Portuguese from Brazil, I guess, what in Brazil, Brazilian TV shows in Portuguese.

It was really interesting to see how the way that the- It- You get a big understanding of how the Brazilian people see themselves and the issues that they have societally, and so the TV shows that I was watching quite often dealt with corruption, you know, governmental corruption and then also the conflict between the rich and the poor.

So, there are a few TV shows, like três por cento, the three per cent, which is all about effectively these people who live in a favela like, you know, the lowest crime ridden place with no food and everything in this ditch effectively in this TV show. And they're trying to get into this, effectively the equivalent of heaven, which is where all the technology is, and they- Each year they go through a selection thing.

And I was like, this show couldn't be made by anyone but Brazilians, like it doesn't-

Once you watch it, you're kind of like, the fact that they have this thing with the races that they have in Brazil, the racism that they have, the struggle that they have with authority being corrupt, and the fact that they have this kind of this division between classes as well, where you have the favela kind of lower class all the way up to the really rich.

It was really interesting watching these TV shows. Another one was omniscient, was another one where they live in a city that's effectively everyone's watched by drone at all times and there's no crime.

Yeah.

But then as soon as you leave the city, it's back to normal and you're on your own. And again, I was like, this is so the kind of thing that this has come from a Brazilian mind. So, it was so beautiful to kind of be able to dive into this culture, consume it in Portuguese, but also see that these things are so unique to the culture that I'm learning about.

And it shows how they see themselves and how they see struggle in life and everything like that. Did you have that same- I mean, it was a very long question, but did you have that same kind of, I guess, would you say sort of mind opening experience when you got deeper into Spanish and started consuming their literature or their TV shows and you were like, whoa, this is way different from what I'm used to?

Yeah, in a sense, it's kind of hard because, you know, Brazil, Brazilian Portuguese, like Brazil is essentially like its own thing because it's just so big. But it's at least one thing, whereas, you know, the difference between Argentina, Colombia and Mexico is, you know, vast in many different ways. So, and I also don't really consume TV shows per se, that's not just how I learn.

And I just don't particularly enjoy, you know, that way of consuming it. So, but yeah, just the- I guess like the Latin American mindset in essence, which is a little bit more- Well, way more spontaneous, not a little bit, way more spontaneous and, you know, loving in a certain way and more a heightened emotion just in everything.

So, it was so funny, like when my girlfriend would get angry at me, because it was like, it was so beautiful, like listening to her like yelling at me in Spanish was like, oh man. Like I couldn't stop from smiling. So, it's just like, this sounds so nice. I don't know what you're saying, you're saying it too fast, but...

I think that's something in Brazil as well, where it tends to be that trope of the, you know, the girlfriend or wife gets very angry and like gets physical or screams and shouts and...

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, more that- Yeah. I just say like heightened emotions in many different ways, whereas I'd say Australia's maybe like in the middle and then you could compare it to...

Germany.

...Germany. That's, you know...

No offence to my German listeners. I love you, guys...

Yeah.

...You, guys. But...

Yeah, I mean like I'm learning, I love that about German. I love that harshness of the way they speak, where it is sort of very monotone, very direct. I really like, I have a feeling if I was born in Germany, like that'd be my place because that's sort of mathematic, that precision, that, you know, detailed plans, organisation. Like I'm all on top of that. I love that stuff.

That would be an interesting study to work out if certain cultures are better suited to introverts versus extroverts. Right. And I imagine there's some kind of something to dig at there and it's probably been done. But yeah, I can imagine that the South American sort of culture or cultures definitely suits extroverts a lot more than it does introverts in Germany. I had a- I have a few friends from Estonia.

And so, Estonia used to be, I think it was part of Russia, like Russia had taken it during the USSR times, or at least part of Estonia, I'm not sure. My history is horrible here. But I remember they were like we were, you know, victims of Marxism and everything for a long time. We had people go to the gulag, and so it was very cold country as well. And so, we're very cold people. We don't smile. We don't really show emotion-

What would you say? Outside of ourselves. You know, it's not something that we really do. And so, when they came to Australia, I remember thinking these guys are fucking angry dudes, man. They constantly seem pissed off, and then after- I moved in with one and lived with him for 4 years and he rapidly just became Australian effectively, and it was phenomenal to kind of see the personality change that he went through so quickly.

And then his friend who came over afterwards, I remember him, he was very cold, but then warmed up and then after 2 years went back to Estonia. And he's like, I feel like such a weirdo man. I smile at people in the street, and they think I'm a psychopath. He's like, that's something that I learnt in Australia. You guys smile when you look at people. We don't do that here, and I've forgotten that we don't do that here.

And now I feel like an outsider because I've come back and I'm like, hey, everyone. What's up, guys? And they're like, look out for the freak, kids. You know.

I actually wanted to ask you this. Now that you've learnt- So, you've learnt Portuguese pretty well and you said that French is like your next best. Like how much are you into the French?

Man, French is hard. I haven't studied it actively in a long time, but it's probably- It was probably at my Portuguese level now 3 years ago, 4 years ago. So, around 2017. But then I met my wife and I just- I had to go a lot more out of my way to find French speakers. It's probably the same that, you know, you've probably found at times with- Probably especially with German in Australia.

Yeah, that would be hard. There's a lot of Colombian's, I was going to say before there's a lot of Colombians in Brisbane.

Exactly. And especially if you were dating a Colombian girl. I mean, the long-distance thing probably changes it. But if she'd been in Australia, you would have been surrounded with Spanish speakers all the time. So, that's my issue, all of Kel's friends are Portuguese speakers. I mean, a lot of the people listening to this podcast have ended up friends.

So, you know, who are Brazilians and effectively reached out to Kel at one point or another while she was pregnant and were like, oh, do you need help with this? I've got some baby clothes and now they're part of our lives. And so, there's all these Brazilian people around all the time. So, it's interesting.

I think when I was learning French, I had a much wider vocab and could talk about much more sophisticated things because it was something I studied. And then when I went to the meet up, so I actually had this sort of plan of trying to talk about these things and constantly talking about my PhD and science and evolution.

Whereas with Portuguese now it feels like- I don't- I'm not- I wouldn't say near native level, but I'm definitely, definitely very, very, very proficient when it comes to talking about stuff at home.

Yeah, yeah...

Because I've only done that for 4 years. Right. And so, I feel like I don't want to toot my own horn, but every single day it's like 6 hours of just Portuguese, but it's the same shit all the time. So, it's like, you know, listening to the same album and knowing all the words by heart and every drumbeat. But that's the difficulty, I never ever reach that kind of proficiency in terms of- What would you say?

It's kind of like the core of my language is really solid, but then the periphery outside of that is very weak because...

I totally get you. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't get those reps. I just don't get that practise and I have to go out of my way. It's laziness on my part. But...

Yeah. See, I've almost got the opposite problem, which is I've really been trying to expand my vocab and things like that. And so, I actually have like another podcast called Reseñas in Spanglish, which is like me doing book reviews in Spanish. And that's really good because I read pretty- Like a large variety of stuff, so I'll be like into philosophy and then Eastern philosophy and then...

Yeah.

...Like neuroscience and things like that. But at the same time, it's gotten to this point where I start to feel like, oh okay, I'm really good at that and I can- Like my vocab is definitely way larger now, my co-host Juan who's native Colombian, like I- My Spanish is more proficient in the larger sense of like, I know how to say tree stump and he wouldn't know how to say that, but I don't know how to like, speak really rapidly, for example.

Like if- And using pronominal and reciprocal verbs like those, I still have to think like...

Or the subjunctive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Portuguese takes that to another level because it's got present, past and future subjunctive and they tend to prefer the future over the present. So, even if you're talking about something in the present they'll just be like, I'll just use the future. Learning all those things, which is mind blowing, because at least with Portuguese, you had to unlearn all these rules effectively of what the book or books kind of sort of taught you.

I'm sorry. I don't know if you got all of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got it. I got it. Yeah. Well, yeah, Spanish is a bit the same where it has the future, but both in the present and subjunctive. But it's not used in the subjunctive and in the present it's like they'll still prefer to use the present and, sorry, in the indicative in- Yeah. In the indicative it has the future tense, but it'll be like "Vojar" instead of like "irei" or whatever, so.

Well the thing that blew my mind. I don't know... I don't know if this happens in Spanish, is that in Brazil there's regions that use different pronouns. So, you'll have the South kind of use vocês, meaning 'you' and in the North they'll use tu meaning 'you', as in singular. And I was reading the books and learning the Portuguese conjugations, and it should be like "tu estás", right? I mean, it would be the same in Spanish.

But no one would ever say that, when they're speaking to one another, it's "tu tá", effectively, which is "tu está" and "está" has been taken from he or she instead of from you. And so, it was like learning all these things where I'm like, oh, my God, I have to learn 2 sets of grammar. I have to learn the wrong way, which is used with speaking all the time by everyone in any kind of, you know, informal situation.

And then I have to learn the official kind of way of doing it, if I was ever to want to do something formally and be able to juggle those 2 things. And it's sort of given me an inside understanding of what people find difficult with English and why it's hard for them to gauge formality versus informality.

Because, you know, when you get into the language of learning languages, you're like, oh my God, it's not just that you use a certain tone of voice. It's different grammatical structures. It's different words of different intensity. Different slang terms or not using slang terms. Using more- I remember my wife saying to me, give me the salt. While we were sitting at the table. I was like, fuck you, dude.

Yeah.

What do you mean, give me the salt? Could you please hand me the salt? You know, or pass me- Would you please pass me the salt. And I remember thinking we were having this discussion there. And don't worry guys, I never- I didn't actually say 'fuck you' to my wife. I'm just sort of playing it up.

But I remember saying, oh, God, we actually have to kind of pad it out in English and use all this extra phrasing and change the verb that we're going to use. You wouldn't just say, give me XYZ, because that's very sort of brutal, short and, you know, informal and rude. You have to use all these other auxiliary verbs and make it a question. Would you please be able to hand me the kindest bowl of salt over-?

You know, like you have to add so much to it. So...

Yeah.

...It's really funny when you learn that stuff.

Yeah, definitely. I was going to ask you before, do you feel any less Aussie now that you have, like a lot stronger connection to Brazil, for example?

Yeah, there's- it's kind of a battle, I feel like I- It's kind of a battle with my own ego. I think this isn't something I've ever really talked about with probably anyone but it- When I-

I had a very big sort of inferiority complex with people who could speak multiple languages when I was sort of doing my PhD and everything, because I felt like it was a sign of intelligence, a sign of success, a sign of, you know, just how much you knew and how smart you were.

And so, I spent a lot of time and energy and effort trying to learn a language because I thought, you know, I don't want to be like the average Australian who doesn't speak any other languages and is very sort of ignorant in his own kind of- Or her own, yeah, sort of this is the West and the West is best and Australia and English, everything is English and, you know, Western culture, without even knowing it. But yeah.

So, I spent a lot of time and effort trying to learn other languages and really dive into the cultures because I wanted to be sort of, you know, awakened and, you know, understand and enlightened and be able to communicate with other people. And then so there's this kind of push and pull where you-

It can creep up on you, like you feel better than other people, especially other Australians, because I feel like any of you guys could learn another language, you just have to work hard enough. You just have to want to do it. You should do it. You should try and learn about other cultures. You should try and do all these things. I've done it, you know, I can do it.

And there's that kind of internal battle at times where, which is probably tied in with whether or not I feel as Australian as other Australians, because now I'm kind of constantly looking outside of Australia, and that as a result has made me think maybe I'm not like the average Australian. You know?

So, it's been an interesting kind of journey having to deal with my ego and deal with not thinking that you're better than other people because you can do XY or Z, but at the same time wanting to feel proud that you've achieved something, that you've worked really hard to be able to speak another language, which is probably one of the most difficult things that you could ever do.

You know, I think we were talking about this on Instagram and it's like what other than like learning to walk and find motor skill when you're 2 years old and then after that it's pretty much set, unless you're going to become a gymnast or something that requires insane practise and everything. The next hardest thing you're ever going to do is learn a foreign language.

So, yeah, I don't know. I think I still see myself as Australian, but I'm- I think compared to the average Australian, I'm much more aware of my position in the world, I think as an Australian and that- And how much we have and how much we take for granted and how much other people don't have.

Like my wife is always telling me these horror stories about her childhood, right. Where there were 17 people living in a, you know, 3-bedroom house and that sort of thing. And your just like, I feel like I'm so- I'm just so ignorant and so lucky and was just totally hidden from all this kind of discomfort in the world, not because I earned it or anything, but just by chance.

And the same with my son, I'm just like, man, this guy is so spoilt. Even in comparison to me, and my wife's like, God damn right he is. He's going to have butter and bread every goddamn day.

Yeah. You've got to be careful you don't try and create too many, you know, hardships for him, that artificial. But that being said, like some artificial hardships are useful at the same time.

Yeah, I think that's definitely important. It's one of those things where- This is the battle with raising children and especially with having a wife and being the husband. I'm constantly kind of like the stick side of things, and she's the carrot, right. So, she's constantly wanting to reduce Noah's suffering in the moment. And I'm constantly thinking of how do I reduce our suffering and his in the long term.

But that means kind of discipline and not giving in to what he wants because he's decided to scream for 2 hours today. And if I just give him that damn biscuit, he'll shut up and it'll all be good for now, but we're going to completely screw him up in terms of behaviour for the rest of his life, you know, that kind of thing. So, it's very interesting having to deal with that.

And I understand, like my wife will be so stressed out and tired because we have another child, but and I'm also not as close to it as she is. So, she doesn't- Like she'll understand it better than I. But it's interesting you have that kind of balance. Yeah.

Yeah. I see that at the calisthenic park all the time because it's essentially a jungle gym. So, kids come all the time and are playing around, so they'll be like, you know, beasts of like bulky dudes, you know, doing the craziest stuff. And then there's these kids, you know, flying around on the bars next to them. And yeah, it's always funny just seeing the differences between the mum and...

Differences between the mum and the dad, yeah.

...The mum and dad. Because the kids will go up on like the top section, you know, there's- They're falling what's equivalent of double their height and the dad will just be usually, oh, yeah. Like that's cool. I'm comfortable with this...

Gotta learn.

...Mum's just running beneath and what not. Yeah, yeah...

It's something that's very...

...Funny seeing that.

...It's very interesting, isn't it? Because it's kind of like, you see the roles of both genders, or both sexes as parents, there needs to be one that's constantly allowing the child to play and explore danger but mitigating it at the right point. Right. Like making sure that they're encountering enough risk and discomfort that they're going to grow, whilst the other one's kind of trying to make sure that they don't go too far. Right.

I guess that's how I see my role as a dad. It's like I need to constantly make Noah feel uncomfortable in order for him to grow, whereas my wife is constantly trying to make sure that he feels loved and made make sure he's comfortable, and there's this kind of juxtaposition. Right. It's kind of like yin and yang constantly where if you get just one of these, the kids probably going to end up worse off. Right.

If he's just got a cold, dad, that's always being like, harden up. Go do this, you'll be fine. And he doesn't have the loving mum to give him a hug. And, you know, obviously, these aren't just male, women- Male, female traits. But...

Yeah, you can switch between the two, you know, more masculine...

Yeah.

...And then more feminine male.

But as well I've met guys like, there's one guy that I know who's- He's just always been told by his mum that he's just the best thing ever and that everything that he does is amazing. And the interesting thing is that he doesn't succeed very well at anything, he doesn't want to do anything because anything that he tries and sees that he fails at, he feels like, oh, well, I'm not even going to bother because it's not in my wheelhouse.

You know? So, it's kind of like really screwed him up because he's not ambitious at all, as a result. He's very I'm just going to be comfortable; I want to stay where I am sort of thing. And I think looking at it from the outside, it seems like he's just being pampered. So, he's gotten one side of it, whereas I know a lot of people who had had parents that were very brutal and, you know, would kill for the other side.

But as a result, they're like ruthless in terms of what they're trying to achieve in life. And they forget, you know, I'm actually looking for meaning not just a big bank account or whatever, so.

Yeah, yeah. Crazy.

Yeah. So, man, we've gone for like an hour and a half with loads of Internet issues. I think that was mainly a lot of the stuff that I really wanted to cover.

Yeah. The one thing I wanted to ask as well was, so when I was travelling, I found that for me creating almost like a... ...Helped me in the sense that there'd be like, you know, English Kyrin. But when I was travelling, I was noticing, like, I don't exactly want to be the same person, like it's not only-

Maybe this is more due to travel than to me, you know, learning the language, but I would find like, one not only was it hard to say Kyrin in Spanish, like, it's a little bit annoying. So, I was using my middle name, Michael, which would then become like Michael or Miguel, whichever they wanted to use. But I definitely feel like, I've still kept that going here in Brisbane.

So, if I meet someone who's Spanish or like, you know, Latino or whatever, I will use Michael and when I speak in Spanish with them, it's almost like a different gear. It's something different for me. It like allows me to be a little bit of a different person. I was wondering if you had the same with, Portuguese or French?

Well, I think it's the same, but different. I've never been to Brazil, so I've never actually gotten to, I guess, experience the country and speak the language where it's spoken and be fully immersed in the culture. So, I'm still waiting for that. We were going to go, but COVID.

Of course.

But I definitely am much more of a prankster, not a prankster, a comedian, you know, the class clown in Portuguese, because I think- I like to play with the language a lot more to kind of work out how it works and make jokes, and I found that Portuguese is a lot more sexual and they use a lot more swear words, you know, I mean, and again, this is a- This is my sort of experience with the people I know.

So, I'm probably not speaking for everyone clearly. But- So it's very interesting. My wife will always say, you don't make anywhere near the same kinds of jokes or as many jokes in English as you do in Portuguese. And I'm like, yeah, because it's not funny in English. Especially not for me, it's not a funny joke. I'm not-

I know that that thing is going to work, that I say, right, in English because it's not a challenge, I'm not creating a sentence or using an expression or trying to be witty with the euphemism.

I mean, I still have that side of me that does that at times, but not in the same way that I would do it in Portuguese, because I'm still trying to get a sense of, you know. How rude is "porra" and how does it fit in? And when you use expressions like Galáxia de pênis, which is like 'galaxy of penises', or 'dicks'. You know, can I-

What sort of situation can actually use that in? Like I saw someone used it on the news in Brazil and then I just whip it out, you know, chatting with a few of my friends in Portuguese and they just shat themselves, laughing. And we're just like, how on earth do you know that? And I'm like, I watch the news. You know, so it's really funny.

I guess I play with language a lot more in Portuguese than I would ever do in English, because English is easy for me, obviously, as a native speaker, the same way that I think a lot of Brazilians would probably never have the same kind of personality or jokes or, you know, things in English.

But I definitely like that side of it, joking around more and its sort of taught me to use words that I'm not comfortable with a lot more and just try and move through it and communicate, focus much more on communication so that I don't worry too much about making mistakes. And it's probably the comedy and jokes and, as well, like swearing a bit.

It's probably come from me having made a lot of mistakes and trying to get- Trying to get out of those situations by making jokes and making it funny as opposed to getting awkward and feeling a bit anxious about it.

Yeah.

So, it's been interesting in that. Yeah, I'm definitely not exactly the same person. I wouldn't just switch to Portuguese, and it would sound like you were still talking to the same person, which I imagine it's the same for anyone who speaks another language that they've learnt later in life.

Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I'm definitely more spontaneous and a bit more emotive and yeah, almost in a way nicer in Spanish than I am in English. Not that I'm like mean or anything. But yeah.

I think it would be the same. It depends on the people I'm around, too. I think if I was in- Obviously I'm talking about previously when I'm swearing and making jokes, I'm in a very informal situation with friends and they're all, you know, 30s and 40s. So, it's- There tend to not be children around that can understand what we say. But if I was meeting Kel's family, I would probably be an introvert massively.

I would just be like, "Tudo bem, senhor?". And then just like, zip it. Don't say anything. Shut up, Pete. Like, you're going to say something that's going to be- It's going to get you in a lot of trouble. That was something I wanted to ask you. Have you had any really interesting or embarrassing moments whilst learning Spanish?

Yeah, my number one was when I was in Argentina, so I was like, yeah, a couple of months in, I was able to start speaking and I was trying to just get better at storytelling essentially. And I was starting to gain a little bit of the past tense. And I was talking to this girl, and I was just trying to tell her of my day at the park.

So, I was like, you know, I went to the park and there was these birds there and, you know, I had lots of fun with the birds, I was feeding the birds. Now, me and the birds are like best friends and...

Oh, no, I think I know where this is going.

Yeah. And 'Bird' in Spanish is pájaro. And I was saying masturbador, which is quite different, which means 'masturbator'. So, I was essentially telling her, like, I went to the park and there were all these masturbators there and I was feeding the masturbators and then like, me and the masturbators are best friends and...

This is why... This is why...

...And the worse bit was like, I'm thinking like, man, I'm killing it. This is the best story... ...I'm the bee's knees. And then after a while she's like...

You've got to stop saying that. You've got to stop saying that, that one word. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kills you, especially when they tell you, like after an hour of you just unleashing and you're like, couldn't you have just told me in the moment?

Yeah.

...Told me then and there? Like, yeah, it's funny isn't it, when they get to Australia and they see Mitsubishi, Pajeros everywhere. And they're like, why are there Mitsubishi Wankers all over the place?

That's beautiful. Yeah, I'd never even thought of that.

My- I think my worst one was that we had a birthday party, and we had some Brazilian friends over. And I remember chatting to one of my friends, Anna, and she's probably listening to this podcast. And I remember saying to her, what's account Bloxwich like, 'do you want' and I thought it was mouthful that I was saying because I was having some brigadeiro and I was like, did you want a mouthful? Would you want to try some of this stuff?

Yeah.

And I'd actually said to her instead of bocado, I said, boquete, which is what they use for 'blowjob'. And I remember her just laughing, like losing it because I had such obviously a deadpan face. I was like, well, don't you want a blowjob? What's up with you?

Yeah.

Do you want a little blowjob, here? You know, holding the food. And she's just like, what the fuck? And then I was like, you know, mouthful. And she's like, no bocado.

Yeah.

And I'm like, uh. I'm pretty sure the French word is something similar to that where it's- Yeah. The languages- Having multiple languages in your head, too, that are similar, just totally screws you up sometimes.

Yeah.

And there are so many words in Portuguese that mean 'dick', you know, like if you mispronounce 'wood', it means- If you mispronounce 'bread', it means 'penis'. So, I remember like not saying bread for the longest time because I couldn't say, pão, I would say pênis, and my wife would just laugh. She'd be like, oh, you want to eat some pênis, hey. Goddammit.

The best bet is...

Maybe I do.

...On there and- Yeah. Who knows? Who knows?

It's my subconscious speaking.

...Yeah. Casually bringing it in, just...

How does this work? Yeah, do you want some sliced penis. I meant bread. Sorry. Whoops. Just gauging the audience.

The best bit is like; they just don't see the link in your brain. Like you think it's super easy between "Pero" and "pájaro" but for them it's just completely different. So, it comes out of nowhere. It's not even understandable.

Oh, there's so many of those minimal friends, right, or minimal pairs. Right. Not false friends. Minimal pairs where my wife always calls one of our friends' bread. And I'm like, are you just fucking with him? His name's Brad. Like- I'm like, it's not bread. And she's like, that's what I said, I said bread. And I'm like, yeah, you said bread, you didn't say Brad.

Yeah.

She's like it's the same sound, damn it. And it's so funny. There's one that gets me in Portuguese, too. That's like the vowel sound between Ellie and Ella. And there's 2 different e and a, and I still can't do it. I'm butchering it. But it's really confusing because one of our friends' names in English is Ellie, but I have to use the wrong vowel sound for- So, Ellie would be him or he and Ella is she.

So, when I try and talk about Ellie, our friend Ellie in Portuguese, I'm always saying he instead of using the right vowel sound, it just kills me because she's always so confused. She's like, who? Which guy? What? Who we seeing? What guy? And I'm like, no, our friend Ellie. For fucks sake. Jesus. And she'd be like, oh. And I'm like, I'm that guy. I'm that guy now.

Like, you know, the amount of time she's had that issue of saying something, you know, like, I want to change the shits. And I'd be like, what do you mean you want to change the shits? You know, just go to the toilet. And she's like, no, the shits on the bed. I'm like, oh, the sheets.

Yeah.

Like that's what I said. You know, it's so funny how often that happens, but you just have to embrace it.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's some things like, you're just going to always stick. I mean like unless you're getting into like, you know, proper pronunciation coaching and things like that, like, yeah, some things are going to stick around and that's cool. That makes it more fun.

How have you found being a gringo? Did you get...

I love it. I used to say I was the king of the gringos. That was like the running joke. I'd always- X would always say, like, you have the soul of a Latino trapped in the body of a gringo. And it was just, dead-on like, I can't dance. Like, I definitely love the Latin culture, but man, I'm a total gringo. That's definitely a- And yeah, yeah. Like it depends how they say it and how you take it as well.

I always- I'm pretty silly, so I tend to just...

Embrace it.

...Out of everything if I can. Yeah.

Yeah. It feels so pejorative, though. I feel like a lot of the time, you know, the way- Like they'll say...

I think there's gringo and then there's like American gringo, I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and it's funny. It blew my mind when Kel told me, my wife told me that anyone who's not Brazilian is a gringo. I was like, wait, what? I thought they were just like westerner's, you know, like people from America, pretty much.

Yeah.

And she's like, no, no, no. Asians are gringos. Indians are gringos. You know, like Japanese people are gringo. Like anyone who is not Brazilian is a gringo. I was like, oh okay. Wow. Okay, well now I don't feel as bad, now I'm kind of in the out-group with everyone, like, I thought I was just being targeted for being white and not being able to, you know, fit into Brazilian culture.

Yeah. Yeah. But it depends like, there's a band called, I think it's Molotov and they're the Mexican band that like live near the border with the US and they are very anti-US. And so, when you hear Gringo in their songs, you're like, oh, God. Yeah, I don't want to be that gringo.

Yeah, too funny. Well, man. Kyrin Down, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We should probably end it there. Where can people find out more about you and what you do?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I have the Mere Mortals Podcast, which is the one I do with myself, and my friend, Juan. Mere Mortals Book reviews, those book reviews and then if you want the same thing but in Spanish, Reseñas in Spanglish and yeah. Mere Mortals Podcast on Instagram. MereMortalsPodcast.com and thanks. Thanks for having me on, Pete.

Like this is so much fun, and, yeah, I really enjoyed tuning into even the chats with you and your dad where it's just like random stuff and you can definitely tell you've got a degree in biology, I was going to ask you about that, you would start talking about like all these native bird species. And I was like, I think he has some expertise in this area.

Man, the ironic thing with the birds only came after I finished Uni and started doing bird photography. So...

Yeah, okay so it came through that way.

Yeah. But I mean, you know, it was funny, and I was on- Got to find it now. Where was I? I was on iTunes today and I was like scrolling down and I just see this, "As Ozzy as can be. Peter's the epitome of consistency, a ridiculous amount of episodes, and they get better with age. I've learnt a tremendous amount even from the entertaining miscellaneous topics with father and son and also general language learning tips."

So, who was that from? That was from you.

That would have been me.

Nah, thank you. Thank you so much, Dude. And I'm really glad that, yeah, we somehow got in contact with one another, and I'll have to harass you to end up on your podcast at some point, too.

Definitely. Definitely. I've been thinking about starting like an Aussie one, like Aussie podcasters podcast or something like that, just to be able to speak with all these people I meet.

Awesome, dude. Well, I hope to have you on in the future. Thank you so much, again.

Hey no, thanks, Pete. It was an absolute pleasure.