In this episode of Aussie English I chat with my wife Kel Smissen about raising bilingual babies, in this case, our son Noah.

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G'day, guys! Welcome to this episode of Aussie English. Today I've got a ripper of an episode for you, guys. I've got a great little episode here. I sat down with my wife Kel today to talk all about raising bilingual children and also about language learning in general.

So, we talk about our experiences for both parts there and share them in this podcast. Now, I did this because I asked you guys on Instagram if you thought it would be something interesting for you to hear about how we plan on raising Noah to speak both Portuguese and English whilst living in Australia, because this tends to be a difficult thing for many people who move abroad teaching their kids both their native languages, whilst also them learning the language of that country. So, without further ado, guys, let's get into this episode.

Alright, Kelly. We are here today to talk about languages and how we're going to teach Noah Portuguese and English, but I also thought it would be a good excuse to talk about maybe our language learning goals, what we're doing to improve our languages and maybe draw now on our massive amount of knowledge from language learning in the past. And, you know, fails and wins, right?

Yeah.

So, Noah wise, what are we doing? What is your plan currently? I'll correct you once you go off the rails.

I don't know. We currently are just speaking with him in Portuguese at home, which is, you know, it comes easily for me. I don't know how you feel about that. Like because when I speak with him in English, I feel a bit weird, like not quite myself.

I'm so used to it now. I think, because you have been doing the whole time. We've had Noah he's almost seven months old, the whole time we've been speaking in Portuguese at home and because we're speaking Portuguese at home, at least probably 90 percent of the time now, we've switched back to a bit of English because of videogaming, which is in English and sometimes I'm like, don't know the words.

Yeah, we speak with him and Portuguese. So, I hope he picks up.

Well, that's the main plan. So, our plan has been because I was doing a little bit of reading and it seemed like you can do one parent does one language, the other parent does the other language, which probably makes sense if you're both in a foreign country together, because then he's getting equal time to each of your languages. And then outside of the house, there's another foreign language, which you'll get exposure to outside the house and also on top of that, he'll, he or she will be learning that language from a native speaker.

Yeah.

Each language from a native speaker.

But we are in Australia.

So, we've had to sort of say, ok, because we're in Australia, which is effectively equal, effectively. It is an English speaking country and an English immersion environment for Kel, for example, everywhere he looks, you know, it doesn't matter where we live. I can throw a rock in any direction and I hit somebody speaks English, right? So, we thought we should just speak Portuguese with him for the first two years, at least.

And your parents can do the rest, right? And they speak with him in English, obviously.

We switch to English when we're around them, usually. I'll speak to him in Portuguese and you still a little bit of Portuguese, but yeah, quite often we'll speak in English, so that they can understand us and everything. But that's been the main plan, right? Two years at home, at least, probably beyond that, right? Mainly for me because I f Because I want mainly for me because I want to keep learning Portuguese too.

Yeah. And I can't wait to hear his first words because they'll be Portuguese words.

Well, we hope.

I don't think he's getting enough English at the moment to explain his first word coming out in English.

He is saying da da da.

So, but it doesn't...

Does that not count?

I'm pretty sure he'll say "papai" first.

You reckon?

Because that's the word we've call...

I know what it is, but you reckon that's going to be it, you don't reckon mama or mamãe?

No. We rarely say that. We always call him 'papai', you know..."papai brinca" things like that. So, I think he'll say "papai" first, and it'll be really cute that he's first word is in Portuguese.

Yeah, well, that's something I'm really looking forward to seeing how he's going to manage learning two languages at the same time, because we noticed this recently, we went out with some friends of mine who were Australian, the whole family is Australian, yesterday for breakfast, or was it the day before?

With Luke?.

Yeah, and when we speak Portuguese, his daughter, who's three and a half, looks at us so strangely.

I you know, she was doing the same when they came here, I was playing with her and I every now and then would just, you know, some Portuguese would just come out, and she was like, what?

And you forget that at that age they have no exposure to foreign languages. She's not at school, she lives in a country town or a small town in New South Wales and in the forest or in the bush there that hasn't been touched by fires yet, but she doesn't have any exposure to foreign languages, and so you don't realize that at that age you don't know there are foreign languages out there.

It must be mind blowing.

You must think it must be like having a stroke or something, right? Because you'll be like... this person is making noises and I don't understand the noises.

And if you try to explain the concept of this as a foreign language, they won't get it.

She has no reference.

It's really weird.

So, that'll be the interesting thing to see with Noah as he's developing how he manages the two, if he shows a preference for one over the other.

That's what worries me because I'm pretty sure he'll get...at some point he'll realize, well, my parents speak a different language and I don't want to be like them, you know what I mean?

Well, I think it's less that he will not want to be like us and more that he will want to be like his friends. And if he doesn't have any friends who speak Portuguese, that's when I think that you'll get the resistance and like, oh, this is embarrassing, I want to be different. But I think the important thing there and this is what I plan to do is obviously keep speaking Portuguese and showing him that I'm passionate about it, I'm interested as a foreigner learning it and that he has nothing to be embarrassed about.

Absolutely.

Because it is going to be so important for him to be able to communicate with half of his family on your side who don't speak English.

And who knows, travel, who knows what he'll end up doing in the future, but having the possibility to go to South America, it's is just great that he has this chance, right? How many people can, you know, have parents from different countries? You kind of get two passports and you learn a different language, it is just a lot of opportunities for you.

And it's such a funny situation, I think, in Australia, because a lot of people move here from overseas, obviously. I think, you know, 25 percent of Australia or some crazy percentage of the people have been born overseas, and quite often the families, they want to leave behind their language and culture and adopt Australian culture, which is good, but at the same time, it's kind of bad because they quite often don't pass on their language to their children.

I see it as bad that way because I went to school with a lot of Asian heritage students, there was some Italians, there was some Lebanese, and the kids generally didn't speak any of the language well. And so one one example was my friend Chris in the same year as me at high school, his dad was Italian, his mum was Filipino, and he spoke native language.

Wow.

And both of them spoke English as a second language to communicate with one another. So, they obviously spoke English at home, neither of them spoke each other's languages, and so obviously, but the hard thing for him was that both of his extended families lived in Italy and the Philippines and didn't speak English.

So he couldn't communicate with them at all.

Exactly. So, that's why I'm sort of like, oh, it'd only be half, half that amount for Noah, but I would hate for him to not be able to communicate with his family. Do you want to talk about some of the families we've met and their kids and learning two languages and what can happen?

The most recent one was this couple from... were they from São Paulo? I don't know. He's Australian, she's Brazilian, but they have a little 3 year old boy.

Probably four year old.

And the boy doesn't speak Portuguese at all, although they lived in Brazil for like ten years, but since they came back... in Brazil I think she said that he was too young or something, and when they came back, he understands, but he refuses to speak Portuguese, which is what I feel with regards to Noah, because I don't know how, you know, toddlers are wild and I don't know if they, you know, I don't want to speak this language, but I don't think he has, I don't know, I think English is everywhere here for him, so I think just because we decided to have a Portuguese is the this the language we speak in the house, he can't get away from it, right?

Well, by the time he realises he can get away from me, hopefully he will have learned enough.

Exactly.

For it to be able to persist. And I guess the thing we have to do is avoid giving up and just switching to English all the time.

Just speak English at night when he's sleeping.

Well, we have to try and find... The hardest thing for us, I think, is finding toys that have Portuguese musical sounds or books that are in Portuguese.

Books are actually easy to find online. I have a friend who sells books in Portuguese, like Brazilian literature for kids and things like that. But, um, toys are hard, unless they come from Brazil.

In which case they're probably what? Four or five times the price after postage.

And who else we've met?

There was another couple who had a son, in fact two kids who understood it but they refused to speak it. So, again, the woman was Brazilian, I think. Again, from Sao Paulo.

Yeah.

And she was married to an Australian bloke.

Who didn't speak Portuguese at all.

He just showed no interest in Portuguese I think. And this is one of those fallacies that you guys are probably know a lot about where, you know, he just thought, oh, I'm too old, can't learn foreign language, too hard, you know, I'll never be able to do it, so I won't ever try, you know, which is, you know, a sure way of never learning a language, if you're not trying.

But do you think because you work with... you teach people different language. You work in education, do you think it facilitates the fact that you want to learn Portuguese? Because I imagine if you had a completely different job, in an office or something, you would be I have no time for that.

Well, when I was doing the Phd I learnt French do to fluency after 10 years of not practicing it at all, and after six years at high school and I was, you know, by the end of high school, I could have a very basic conversation or I could ask for directions, I could say 'hello' or order some food from the bakery or something, but I couldn't have a spontaneous conversation like I can with you in Portuguese.

But after six months, I did that because I wanted it. I took it seriously and I enjoyed it, and I wanted something aside from what I was doing. So, it was like... it was kind of like a hobby on the side where I took it seriously. And then I guess a lot of people just don't see... they think it's harder than it is, whilst it is hard, but they also don't want to put in the amount of effort that's required. They also they also don't appreciate how much time and how much of a commitment it is. I think as you know.

Absolutely. And I mean, for me, at least, it's just I want to learn French, right? I've started it few times and I always stop or I don't just I don't have time for it and it's hard because I don't have exposure, like I don't need French.

Well, I mean, I've lost my French recently because I have no French people in my life. I have to go out of my way to use French, I have to go out of my way to consume French, and so even with Portuguese, I noticed that, I have to use it everyday with you, or at least I can use it, and so I choose to use it, but there's no one French around here so I can't easily start using my French without actively planning out every moment of my day.

I think the best thing for us would be if I decided to take it seriously and learn French, you would have to speak French with me, and that would be another language for us to practice.

Yeah, for sure.

But we can do that...

The hardest thing is finding motivation, and these guys listening will know that with English, right? Quite often in your own home country, it's quite difficult to get motivated to learn it, especially under your own steam. You know, with your own effort at home using the Internet, quite often you need a reason, right? And that's why a lot of people arrive in Australia with very basic English.

I don't think I've met very many people who've arrived here with as high a level English as, say, you or people who've lived in Australia for three or four years, who've taken it seriously. Quite often it takes that movement from one country to the other, and to say, you know, draw a line in the sand and say, you know, I'm taking this seriously from now on. It is pretty hard.

Yes. Joana, my best friend, when she was living here, she was living in Sydney. She already spoke English, like she studied English, her whole life, but she came here, she was like, I think the first month, first two months, I'd say, were really hard. She was like, I can't communicate, it is just quick, she's like, I don't understand the slang, it is just different.

And then she started to pick it up and things were flowing. But it was hard, like even for someone who has a basic understanding of English. It is a completely different thing to live in a different country.

Well, the problem is a lot of people hide from it, because you have to kind of turn towards discomfort and danger, you know, going out of your comfort zone, because it's kind of like you're at a fork in the road, you know, in those fairy tales where one of them is like beautiful and green and lush and there's fairies and there's rainbows, and the other one goes into a deep, dark forest.

And what you don't realise is that the one that goes into the deep, dark forest was scary and harder is actually the shortcut, and the one that's green, rainbows, fairies and lovely and the sun is out is the one that actually meanders around and may not ever actually get you to your destination.

So, what I'm saying here, I guess, is that, and it's the same for me, you have to keep pushing outside of the comfort zone and finding new things and to read about to learn about to keep like trying really hard to challenge yourself, whether it's, you know, living with foreigners, getting a job with foreigners, reading materials, stop watching TV in your language, TV in the foreign language.

And even I have to do that, I have to keep reminding myself, and I wanted to talk about this on the podcast that with you in Portuguese, I feel now that my trajectory of improvement has plateaued because we don't really talk about new things that often, like I've kind of mastered all of the common language we use all the time at home.

You know, what you want for lunch? You're playing with the kid, bla bla bla. I can I can manage to get around the conversations, but I can feel that I need to read more complicated books about more complicated subjects if I want to expand my vocab and feel much more comfortable with, you know, more complicated topics or more complicated grammar and a wider vocabulary.

Because if I don't do it, I can make do, I can get around with a basic vocab without pushing now, but I'm never going to expand, and I think coming back to Noah it's going to be the same thing with Portuguese at home. We're going to have to keep finding ways of challenging him and expanding his Portuguese or he's just going to learn the very basic that he needs to get around at home.

Yeah. And we won't be able to have deep, meaningful conversations.

Well, that's it, because it'll be weird, you will leave the house and have like the girls that we're friends with. They're six and three, they go to school and the English they use is different from the Portuguese they use at home. And so when they're home and they want to describe what they were doing at school, quite often they have to do it in English because they don't have the vocab for it and vice versa, right?

So funny how how the brain works, right?

Well, makes sense. You go to school and you play with English kids, English speaking kids talking about things like the playground and toys and class, and then you come home and you're not talking about the playground toys in class in Portuguese with your mom normally. And so you have to keep pushing them and challenging them.

I think, yeah. I need to learn French. And if we actually think about moving to France at some point in our lives, which would be great for me because that would be the ultimate push, like 'you have to learn' because...

You don't have a choice, sink or swim.

But here, I don't know, I find it a bit tricky.

You have to be, you have to effectively rely 100 percent on motivation or determination and discipline. And those things can quite often be very difficult to muster. To summon up to have when you don't have an external force pushing on you to improve that thing, like French people around.

Or a necessity.

That's what I mean.

Well, we just hope he'll be able to communicate and just learn as much Portuguese as he can.

Yeah. So, I guess that's the plan. Just keep talking for now, wait for him to start speaking, encourage him constantly in Portuguese at home and let English happen passively outside of the home.

I keep thinking, like I imagine having your parents here and like he's speaking in Portuguese. They can't understand him, but then he realises, oh, grandma and grandpa speak English and he'll speak English with them. It's just mind blowing.

Well, that's probably going to screw them up, too, because they, my parents, they're always saying bits and pieces in Portuguese now like 'hey, tudo bem, como vai?' and so he'll probably be like, 'oh yeah, tudo bem, como vai você?', you know, like reply to them and they'll be like, "yeah, that's it".

I can't wait. I don't know. They say once the child starts speaking they can't shut up, and you you wish they hadn't started speaking, but right now it's just like oh come on, say something.

Going back to teaching the kids too and you know, making sure that they learn a foreign language, I think the biggest thing is just showing them that you're passionate about it and encouraging them, because one of those things I remember as a kid, you don't want to do anything dorky, you know, that makes you feel strange compared to your friends.

But also if your parents if you can sense that they don't really enjoy it, then don't like or they don't appreciate it. Like with that couple who where the dad didn't have any appreciation for Portuguese, did want to learn it. Hated it.

Like fishing. Your dad never wanted to go fishing.

Yeah, exactly. But I went, you know, he would come with me to help me, he would do it, he would go out of his way to do it. But, yes, you have to kind of, I guess, be the inspiration for your kids.

True, role models, right?

Exactly. and show them the positives, this is cool, this is useful, it's a skill. You know, look, you can communicate with foreign people, you and you've got family who love you and want to communicate with you. Make sure you talk to them, you know, get on social media, everything like that.

And keep putting those connections in place to strengthen their their reasons, because maybe they won't be able to rely just on motivation or discipline growing up. I'm sure we'll tackle different things as we go forward. Do you want to talk about Oli as well and how good they are? Talk about their situation because that's an interesting one.

So, Ana is from Brazil.

So, these are friends that we have that we met in Australia and they were, Ana was following Aussie English and got in contact with me when she moved to Melbourne and we caught up.

And then she's married to. Where is he from again?

He's a Hungarian.

Hungarian guy.

He's from Hungary.

Yeah. And they have two kids like, Alex and Oli, I hope she's listening too. I'll tell her.

Hi Ana!

And so they speak, the kids speak, obviously, English, they speak Portuguese.

Yeah.

I'm sure Oli spoke a little bit of French at some point.

Yeah. And they also both spoke Hungarian.

Yeah.

And so it was interesting, they probably spoke, from memory, Hungarian best Portuguese second best, then English and a little bit of French from when they were in Switzerland.

But they would switch like when she realised you spoke Portuguese, she was speaking Portuguese to you, and she would turn to Alex and speak Hungarian with him.

Yeah. The kids chose to speak Hungarian with one another, but the thing was that it was cool and showed me that you shouldn't underestimate kids and what they capable of was the fact that both Alex and Oli could choose who they wanted to speak to, in which language.

So, they would sort of wait for you to speak and then be like, ok, I use English to speak to Pete. Kel's Brazilian, I'll speak to her in Portuguese. My dad's Hungarian, I'll switch to Hungarian and they'll do that in the same instant where they'll be sitting in the room with all of us and they'll go from one to the other and be chatting to everyone and just switch languages pretty much effortlessly.

Whereas right now I'm like, ok, English mode, I can't say anything in Portuguese because my first reaction is like Portuguese, but kids are just amazing, just easy. I don't know.

Well, that's all they know. They're a blank slate in those terms.

They're like, 'everyone's like that'!

Yeah, well, that's it. And so I think, too, that their parents never had a problem with encouraging them to learn these languages. And they also had toys and books and everything for all these languages to really sort of foster that learning.

Amazing. We miss them.

Yeah. So, I hope you guys listening. Anyway, that's probably enough for this episode. But let us know what you guys are doing.

I would really appreciate if someone, you know, if you have some tips for like teaching a child a second language, just like how to keep it up, how do you make sure they are engaged and as they grow up, how do you keep pushing them to learn, it would be really nice.

You guys probably have all kinds of different experiences, especially if you've moved countries you're living in Australia or you're living overseas somewhere in America or Britain or anywhere other country where you've gone through this process of taking your kids or having kids there and having to encourage them to learn your language, as well as the native language in that location. Definitely sends a message or email us and let us know.

Just another thing I've seen people on Instagram, Brazilian like digital influences or something, speaking to their kids in English in Brazil, so the kids can learn English. So, there's people doing the same thing everywhere, just everyone hoping it works and grow up bilingual kids.

Something you can do is, you know, practice your English if you don't living in Australia or, you know, an English speaking country, you can practice your English at home with your kids when they're growing up, it's not going to hurt. You know, try and encourage them to learn it.

That's it.

Anyway, thanks for joining us, guys. And we will see you in the next episode.

Alright. So, that's it for today, guys. Thank you so much for joining me, it is always a privilege and a pleasure to be here sending my sound waves into your eardrums, right? Talking to you, giving you the audio.

Anyway, remember, if you have any suggestions, tips or just want to share your experience with me about what you guys are doing in terms of raising your children to speak multiple languages in whatever country that may be, and if it is about learning languages themselves, please feel free to send me a message comment some way or will send me an email at [email protected], ok? I'm Pete, your host, and I'll chat to you soon. So, yeah.