Transcript of AE 1442 - The Goss: How Do You Actually Make Friends as an Adult?

Pete:
When did catching up with a friend become something you have to book three weeks in advance, Dad?

Ian:
Three months in advance.

Pete:
Is that what it's like for you at the moment?

Ian:
Yeah, I think it's when people get a life that they can't just drop things on the fly. You know, people are working, they've got kids, they've got other commitments.

Pete:
At least not ethically.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm not going to go to work today. I'll go out with Ian.

Pete:
I'm like, I've left my kids for three months. We can hang out every day if you want.

Ian:
Yeah. Well, and it's funny because I've got a couple of, of friends who I've known for nearly 60 years and we get, we try and get together once or twice a year. I'm the youngest of them. So, you know, they're in their 70s and it's still hard to find time. Yeah. We're all retired, and it's still hard to find time, so, I don't know.

Pete:
G'day, guys! Welcome to the Aussie English podcast. Grab a cuppa, get comfy, and let's have a yarn. Today, Dad and I are talking about adult friendships. Meeting someone you get along with, finding time to see them again, and staying close when everyone has work, kids, and a hundred other things going on, we'll share a few experiences and see which parts are awkward, which parts are lovely, and which parts we're still trying to work out. So, Dad, can you remember meeting someone as an adult and thinking, I'd like to see this person again? And what happened next? I'm expecting you to say I've met plenty that I've thought that I would never like to see.

Ian:
Well, exactly. There's plenty of I go get me the fuck out of here. Just don't make eye contact.

Pete:
You just walk away mid-sentence!

Ian:
Ah, yes. I've been trapped by a few of those at parties in particular, where you're, where you're actually a captive audience. And, uh..

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And people just. I got trapped once at a friend's birthday party.

Pete:
Have you met Bill? I'm gonna go to the toilet. Are you...?

Ian:
Pretty much. It was with somebody who I had didn't even know they existed, let alone you know the name. No. Never heard of them before.

Pete:
And then wish they did.

Ian:
It was a friend of a friend. And they were a plane spotter.

Pete:
All right.

Ian:
And the entire conversation for half an hour was them talking about how they would go out to the Melbourne airport and sit in the car park with their binoculars out, watching all the planes come in. And like 90% of the planes back then were exactly the same plane. But they would be recording the registration numbers on the planes and you reckon. All right, that conversation you'd think would last 15 seconds. You go, oh, cool. So what else do you do? Not- could not distract them from that conversation. So yes, in essence...

Pete:
We will talk about this for the next hour, whether you like it or not.

Ian:
Pretty much! So yes, in answer to your question, yes, I have, have met people like that. And it's, it's one of those things where you don't, you don't think about it at the time. But you think about it later and go, oh yeah, how do I catch up with this person? I was lucky in a sense that mostly those acquaintances that turned into friendships happened through work.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And so you were always likely to see the person again anyway.

Pete:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ian:
It wasn't that, you know, you met somebody at the shopping centre, spoke to them for five minutes and going, oh, I'd better give Bill a ring. You know, it's but, so there was always that opportunity to catch up again anyway. So you didn't have to plan it.

Pete:
So what do you do in that case? Like if you, you want to generate a friendship with someone that you don't currently have one with, obviously, and it is somewhere like a work environment or a social environment. You know what is your sort of go to if you have that urge? Or do you more often than not, just say, I mean, I'd like to, but I can't be.

Ian:
Yeah, I probably don't think about it that much.

Pete:
Don't analyse it.

Ian:
Well, don't, don't plan it as such. It just sort of happens. And then but I suppose you just make the opportunity the best of opportunities when they come up. So, you know, the next time you meet them and go, oh, do you want to go and grab a drink? Or, you know, you find some common interest during a conversation, go, I'm going to the football next weekend. You know, you're a Carlton supporter. I'm an Essendon supporter. Yeah. Let's go.

Pete:
We hate each other!

Ian:
We hate each other! But happy to go and yell at you at the football, you know. So you sort of make those opportunities, I suppose. It's um.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
I've never been one for planning an attack, if you like.

Pete:
I've put myself in the same location every day for a week..

Ian:
It's called stalking. Yeah.

Pete:
Yeah. That's it. At what point does it become that? No, but it was funny because that sort of happened to me with the guys at the guitar shop, where I think I kept going there again and again and again, selling guitars, buying stuff, playing guitars and hanging out really just clicked with Tim, the main, you know, guy at the front that I would always be talking to. And then I think it did just organically end up being this thing of, did you want to come to this gig? Do you want to do this thing? Do you want to go to that show? Like this band's in. We both like this band, and now we go to each other's houses and play guitars and have a jam and all that sort of stuff. And he's probably one of the one of the first adult friends, like really close friends that I've made, because Australians are pretty renowned for having like high school, uni friends.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
As adults and kind of like, who are your closest friends, Dad?

Ian:
Only, I only known them for 50 years.

Pete:
Yeah. And how's that? What were you doing 50 years ago?

Ian:
At university. Yeah.

Pete:
Exactly. Right. Yeah. Although you'd probably have some from the athletics club...

Ian:
I do. Well, they too, that I was talking about in the intro there. They're from the athletics club when I was, you know, I think I met them when I was 12.

Pete:
So they'd be your oldest friends, wouldn't they?

Ian:
No. Primary school and, and kids from the local area that I still see and know, some of them I've known before we even knew each other, you know.

Pete:
So how does that work?

Ian:
We were, we were babies when our parents were friends. And so you just grow up knowing them. Yeah. You know, knowing them all, literally all your life.

Pete:
Yeah. Yeah. It is an interesting one though, because I have those moments sometimes of like, I really click with this person. How do I make something happen so that we end up mates because it's like, it feels like otherwise it's an opportunity lost and I'm gonna have to filter through another thousand human beings before, before I find someone that I really click with.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Yeah. It's, I don't know, it's like that movie Sliding Doors. Do you remember that movie?

Ian:
Oh yeah, yeah.

Pete:
Is that Gwyneth Paltrow that's in that one?

Ian:
I can't remember her.

Pete:
But it's this idea of parallel lives and the thing that sends this woman on two separate parallel lives is that when she's walking through some sliding doors. I think either they open or they don't.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
And then all of a sudden..

Ian:
And what happens?

Pete:
Exactly. Yeah. And I always..

Ian:
The two universes.

Pete:
Exactly. Yeah. I always wonder, you know, it's like walking past people. It's like walking past people in the street or driving past cars when you're driving. And I'm always like, I wonder how many times I've walked past this person.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
You know, and will we be friends? Would they? Do they have an interesting life? Are they boring? Are they happy? What are they, you know.

Ian:
Are they trainspotters or plane spotters?

Pete:
The weird thing is, when you see someone or a car, you know, usually a person though, who's super unique. And then like six months later you see him again just in the street and you're like, I recognise that guy. And it's, it's crazy that your face, your face has like been memorised by a stranger. And it's just somehow they see you again and they're like, wait a second.

Ian:
Wait on.

Pete:
Yeah. Anyway, what makes the next step feel so awkward? You reckon some suggesting something. Exchanging numbers or, or following through?

Ian:
Yeah, I don't know. I suppose it's, it's that, there's two parts to it. One is the risk of rejection.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And the other one is that risk of the other person thinking that it's awkward. Like, you know, fucking stalker. What do you mean? Go out for a cup of coffee?

Pete:
Can we be friends?

Ian:
No, I don't want to have sex. Go away. Yeah.

Pete:
Yeah. I'm too old for this shit. I want to be friends. But it's weird that you ask to be friends.

Ian:
Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Because mostly they're organic, these things, and you don't sort of. As I said, I'm not a planner for those things, but it just sort of happens.

Pete:
Yeah. What do you do to try and allow it to? Would you just actively try and invite them to something or suggest something like, I assume that you've had this happen with your photography related stuff, right?

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Where you've got mutual interests with other people who are photographers. And so you just say, do you want to catch up here again next week or.

Ian:
Yeah. Or, or often it's, where there is, there's a sort of planned opportunities.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Like the, there's a bird photography group that I, you know, belong to is probably a bit extreme because it's sort of yes, I'm a member, but it's not an official thing at all. It's just, you know, they, they plan monthly outings and things. And I go to a few of them. And, but they're, the opportunities already planned for you.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And so you go and hang out with the people, you know, and you like, because you, you, a, you've got a common interest and doing that. But I could go out photographing birds without going with that group.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And in fact, a lot of times it's counterproductive from a photography point of view to be out with a group of 20 or more people.

Pete:
Because you're all staring at the same animal!

Ian:
Exactly. And it's hard to sneak up on something when, when there's five people yahoo-ing up the back going, ah. Chat chat chat. But it's a social thing as well.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
We just came back a couple of weekends ago from a long weekend, up in north west Victoria with that group, and we get to spend 3 or 4 days with people, and you go out a couple of places a day and go to the pub for dinner on the Saturday night. So they're sort of planned activities that you choose to participate in or not. But there's probably not many of those people that I would actively go, oh, I'm going to ring such and such and see if they want to go out.

Pete:
So it kind of has to be within the scope of whatever the hobby or interest is.

Ian:
It doesn't have to be. It's just, yeah, it's probably my natural tendency is that I don't need to do that because there's already a set up for it.

Pete:
Yeah. Do you feel like you need to have a lot in common with someone in order to be friends with them?

Ian:
I don't need to, but if we don't have a lot in common, then.

Pete:
What do you talk about?

Ian:
A, what do you talk about? And B, what do you argue about? Yeah.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So I suppose, I mean, ultimately that's what friendship is about is shared experience isn't it. And and if your shared experiences don't really overlap, then what's the basis for the friendship?

Pete:
Yeah. It's interesting. Like, I've got quite a few students, English students that I teach at the moment. And a lot of them are say, you know, Islamic, I'm not Islamic or super Christian and I'm not. Or they'll be very right leaning or very left leaning. And although obviously we have the thing in common of like English learning and I'm helping like teach them, it has become really interesting having these kind of like discussions with these students at times. And just even though we don't have those things in common, I can just ask them about them and learn about those things from their point of view. And it almost becomes like a shared interest, even though we're on completely different ends of the spectrum.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Yeah. So talk me through what it takes to organise a catch up in your life now. You know, what is that process like if you're thinking about it? Are you like, okay, so 2028. Meet in May on a sunny day...

Ian:
For 15 minutes!

Pete:
That's it. Plan to be here so that I may have the opportunity to see.

Ian:
Exactly. Yeah. Look, mostly it is. It's just about trying to find time in calendars. And I've always been of the opinion that you don't. And particularly if there's more than two people involved. You don't go through that circus of. Well I'm available on these days. Are you available on these and are you available? It's just you set a date and the people who can turn up, turn up.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Whereas if it's a one on one, then it's a little bit simpler. Not necessarily easier.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Where you just say, all right, well, you know, next Saturday, do you want to come and, you know, watch the baseball or do you want to go to the pub or do you want to, you know, go out for dinner or whatever it happens to be?

Pete:
Do you feel like one of you has to be the driving force? Usually like the organiser.

Ian:
It depends sometimes. But then other times it's sort of, you know, it's not a matter of taking it in turns, it's just that, you know, well with our best friends, it's, they've got a holiday house in, in Ocean Grove where we live. So when they come down, it's obvious they'll let us know and then we'll work out how to get together.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So it's not that they are necessarily doing the organising. It's just the trigger for them is they're coming out here other than us going to Melbourne. So.

Pete:
It's an interesting thing because I always feel like with my friends, it's me doing all the organising and it seems like looking back, it seems to have always been that case since I was in high school. It was always me effectively being like, are you guys free? Do you want to do something? Let's catch up. And it got to the point later in life where I'm almost like, if people can't even be bothered trying to organise stuff with me or invites like, is there any point to trying to do this? You know, like, how do you feel about that? Do you feel like, can you be good friends with someone who never instigates a catch up?

Ian:
Well, I suppose you can.

Pete:
But do you, do you get offended by that to some degree? Or are you sort of just like people are?

Ian:
It's yeah, I think people are who they are. And there are some people that I haven't seen for a decade that I would still call friends.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And you sort of sit there and go, ah, I haven't called them. Well, they haven't called me either, you know. So and, you know, people's lives move on and they fill them up with whatever they're doing. And, so yeah, I, I can't think of an instance where I have a friend who I'm the one who does all the work.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Um. So.

Pete:
How do you maintain a friendship when you don't drink coffee?

Ian:
Yeah. It's a challenge. Yeah. The question reads something like, yeah, let's go out and you have a coffee?

Pete:
Yeah, exactly.

Ian:
So yes, it's a bit anti-social not drinking tea or coffee.

Pete:
So what if you're catching up with mates? What are the usual things that you're doing? What are the events? What are the situations that you find yourself in?

Ian:
Well, eating. So.

Pete:
Eating, drinking.

Ian:
Brunch, lunch, dinner.

Pete:
And what, what else?

Ian:
Um.

Pete:
Besides food?

Ian:
Yeah. Like, an event? Going to something?

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Yeah. Oh, there's a show on or there's a. Do you want to go to the local market that's open on a Saturday morning or whatever. That sort of thing. But.

Pete:
And sport.

Ian:
Yes. And then there then there's the the sporting opportunities.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
You know, go to the cricket, go to the football going to whatever it happens to be.

Pete:
And that's just bonding over hatred of the performance of the team you're watching, right?

Ian:
Yes. Usually my team.

Pete:
Yeah. You and your best friend Ralph are constantly catching up and watching.

Ian:
Watching our two teams.

Pete:
Or baseball...

Ian:
And and going to. Yeah. Going to the AFL where our two teams have been terrible for two decades. So in his case, three decades, mine two and a half decades.

Pete:
Which are your teams?

Ian:
Well, mine's Essendon, his is Carlton. So.

Pete:
Yeah. So AFL footy teams.

Ian:
Yeah. They, they haven't won. Well Carlton's last premiership was 1995. Essendon's was 2000.

Pete:
Nice. Any day now!

Ian:
Any day. Exactly.

Pete:
So you guys are just, just one more before we kick the bucket.

Ian:
We're a bit, we're a bit spoilt as well, I suppose, in that, you know, for the first 40 years of our lives, both teams did pretty well and fairly regularly. So, all of a sudden have this long drought. And in Essendon's case, for the last ten years, they've just been terrible. So not just not winning, but terrible.

Pete:
Yeah. Well, slight segue, but what leads to AFL teams sort of surging or falling in terms of performance? Is it because I always thought it was where they kind of fall on the ladder, and then they get their draft picks and they can pick the best players...

Ian:
Yeah, so there's always this sort of equalisation thing.

Pete:
But it seems like that's not always the case. Like it's not always just this because that would almost look in my mind like a, like a sine wave, right? Of all the teams rising and falling sort of sequentially. But that doesn't seem to be what happens.

Ian:
No, I think there are some teams that just for whatever reason. Geelong is a good example of a, of a team that has been up for 20 years.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
They haven't won a huge number of premierships, but they've been in the finals every year.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And, and, and I think that they also then become a destination team. So yeah, if you're successful, then you're not going to get high draft picks, but you're going to get players transferring to you or wanting to be transferred to you. And that's one of the differences is if you're not going to get draft picks, then you've got to get players from other clubs to maintain the quality of player in your team. So yeah, it's it's a bizarre one really.

Pete:
So, with back to friends.

Ian:
Mhm.

Pete:
Does a specific plan feel easier than an open invitation for you? Or do you like, do you try and have everything planned down to the tee? Like this is exactly what we're going to do. Or are you just like, let's hang out?

Ian:
I'm a bit of a planner, by nature. So if somebody says, oh, let's catch up on Saturday, I'll say, okay, what are we going to do? Not 'okay', and then 5:00 Saturday afternoon going, well, I haven't heard from them. What are we doing?

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So I'll be, All right. What do you want to do? Do you want to go out to eat? Do you want to go and do something or are you going to come to our place or we're going to go to your place? Or, you know, is it we as in Jo and me, or is it just me or is it, you know, so I'm a, is it a bit of a planner? So I'd prefer to know what is going on. Not that I particularly care.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
It's more that, you know.

Pete:
Where and when.

Ian:
Yeah. Exactly where, when and what.

Pete:
Once we're there, we do whatever the hell you want.

Ian:
Exactly. But yeah. Where and when.

Pete:
Yeah, I had a, I had a follow up question. I had a follow up question.

Ian:
And it's gone.

Pete:
It's gone. I can't find it. I think it's under the couch. Tell us a story about a plan that kept being postponed or a simple catch up that became ridiculously complicated. What finally happened? I feel like you and Ralph's mutual friend from university, probably?

Ian:
Yes! Who shall remain nameless. Yeah. Yeah. There are moments there. But again, it's the the two that from the athletics club.

Pete:
Yeah. Okay.

Ian:
Where we'll. Yeah. As I said, you know, three old semi retired gentlemen. And it's sort of, oh well, you know, let's catch up next Saturday or next Wednesday. Okay. Cool. And a day later. Uh, sorry, I can't make it. Can we make it the, the month after? Oh, no. Look, can we make it February?

Pete:
And you're like, I had that the other day. One of my mates who I haven't seen for probably ten since we were in Canberra. So probably getting close to ten years. I guess that would have been 2018. He is now living in Melbourne so he was, he became a vet and was initially he was flying from Melbourne to Adelaide to go to lectures because he got into one of the Adelaide unis.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
And, but he only had to be there twice a week and he was like, oh, just fly. And then and then he moved to Sydney. And he's been there for ten years studying and working, and now he's back in Melbourne and he sends me this message, oh, I'm catching up with a girl in Geelong next week. Uh, what day are you free. And I'll try and make the catch up that day. And I was like, here's the day. No reply. And then a week passed and he's like, sorry, I didn't make it. And I'm like, yeah, I got that. Like, I realised.

Ian:
I'm still at my front door waiting to get in the car.

Pete:
I was like...

Ian:
Ready to go?

Pete:
Yeah. By the, by, the lack of messages, I sort of assumed that had happened. And he's like, we'll make it happen and then just disappeared.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
But it is funny because he just sort of, there are certain friends where I guess you expect more from them in terms of how often how much communication.

Ian:
Mhm.

Pete:
And there are others that I guess they just, you know, what they're like. And you kind of just have to accept they are who they are and they'll get on to you when they do. And it's not a malicious thing. Like one of my other friends, Sean from high school, he's he's, as an adult, got diagnosed with autism and shit just overwhelms him all the time. And he's got two kids with autism. And so like, we thought..

Ian:
That's enough to overwhelm you.

Pete:
Yeah. That's it. Two young kids with autism. And so what, what was happening? We were, we caught up for the first time in like, it would have been like ten years just chatting on WhatsApp all the time. And we would do the thing we used to do where we would call each other on Zoom and watch a movie together or like, like, he's got this program that I can have on my computer and we can both stream the same film simultaneously. And we would just chat about what's going on. Anyway, so we did that for like a year, hanging out all the time. And then he's just like, man, getting really anxious kids going crazy. I'll be black ops for a while. And it's been a year! And I haven't heard from him, but that's just what he's like. And then one day he'll just pop up and be like, so how's family?

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
And you're like, okay, I guess that's just adult friendships. So.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
So what do you do? How forgiving are you of those types of people?

Ian:
Well, I'm forgiving to in the in the sense that I'm probably like that as well. Not in the breaking plans because I'm, I'm, I'm a bit of a stickler for if you make a plan, you stick to it.

Pete:
That's it. Honour!

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Where is Your honour?

Ian:
Yeah. Unless, you know, something truly dramatic happens. But yeah, people break plans, they break plans. The test is, am I going to be the one that will try and make the next plan?

Pete:
Oh, I guess that's the assumption, right, too. Yeah. If one plan falls through and it's because of you and the other person's probably they're thinking, well, are you gonna give me some options for the follow up? And then they don't. You're kind of like, okay. Message received.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly.

Pete:
And that's annoying because it's either I don't want to hang out with you or I don't, I can't be bothered even like, and you sort of, like.

Ian:
Or I. It's, I could be bothered, but it's still low in the priority list of my day to day stuff.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And you know, that's the the shit that gets in the way of your life.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
It's that, what's more important, calling somebody that you haven't seen for five years, but you really like them and you want to go and catch up or taking the rubbish out.

Pete:
Just do both, Dad!

Ian:
Taking the rubbish out has to be done now and. Well, that took five minutes.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Why don't I call them? Oh no. It's gone.

Pete:
I'm on the toilet now.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly.

Pete:
I'm outside gardening.

Ian:
It's that matrix of, urgency and importance. And often they're not the same.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Things are urgent and not necessarily important. But you keep doing the urgent things, whereas you've got to make time in your life or your work to do the important things and give them priority occasionally and piss the urgent stuff off because you work out that, in fact, it's not that urgent!

Pete:
Yeah. Yeah. That's it. The bins could have waited.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Yeah. It's hard, isn't it? I try and be that sort of person to where quite often I, I have those moments of thinking, oh, I should message this person. And any time that comes into my head, I'm just like, just do it.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
It doesn't matter. Just send him a message.

Ian:
I say that to your mother all the time.

Pete:
Well, I bet she's the kind that's like no.

Ian:
Bloody procrastinator.

Pete:
And hold a grudge.

Ian:
And hold her- and doesn't like phones!

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Where? She'll sit there and say, oh, can you text Pete and ask him? And I go, fucking call him yourself!

Pete:
This is Kel. Kel, my wife, is always like, can you ask your dad? And I'm like, we're in a family group on Facebook and you just message me privately on Facebook to ask my dad something who is currently on Facebook, just message them on Facebook. And that should be like, okay, okay. Like, I know it's weird. I don't know if, do you reckon that's a feminine thing or is that just a maybe?

Ian:
I don't know.

Pete:
Or that they're in relationships. There's a kind of like, you're the organiser.

Ian:
The hierarchy of relationships. Yes. He's your son. Well, he's yours too.

Pete:
You were there!

Ian:
But you're the father. Yeah. Okay.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
As if that gives me any authority.

Pete:
How do you feel making friends has changed since you were a kid? Like, what was it like as a kid back in your day?

Ian:
Back in my day.

Pete:
Was it different from you reckon how it is for kids now?

Ian:
No, I think it's all the same. I think kids are kids and we're social beings, humans. And so we, we desire being around other people. And so kids, it just happens naturally, organically. Yeah. And it's, it's usually it's the, the old gag of, you know, parents take their children to meet their friends and the children are hanging out with the other children. And for the first two hours, they're sort of looking at us. And then afterwards..

Pete:
It happens the other way around as well.

Ian:
And then, and then after 2.5 hours, you're going, oh, well, it's time for us to leave now. But they're our friends. We want to stay. You know.

Pete:
It happens the other way around too, where, like you take the kids to play dates with their mates from school.

Ian:
And you're standing around.

Pete:
It's funny, like the number of times I'm like, these guys, I bet these parents, they're such dickheads. Look at them, look at them. I bet you they're dickheads. And then you get to know them. You're like, these people are great. And then the kids end up not being friends and you're like, fuck that. You are still friends with this person. I am hanging out with them.

Ian:
I wanna go and see their mum! Yeah, she's really cool!

Pete:
Yeah, you better enjoy it.

Ian:
But Billy's a dick. I don't want to see.

Pete:
No one cares. Go and hang out with him and pretend like you're having fun for at least an hour. So do you feel like it was easier as a kid, or do you feel like even on paper..

Ian:
It was easy, it was easy to make friends because you did it without thinking about it. It was probably harder to keep them because.

Pete:
Yes.

Ian:
And like kids being kids and, you know, kids hunting packs. And so if you're part of...

Pete:
On the Serengeti Plain.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly. If you're part of the pack, then you're okay. But it's very easy to get pushed out of the pack.

Pete:
And then everyone's like, eww.

Ian:
Without, without you even knowing why. Like, what did I do wrong? I was thinking about that on the way over here. Don't ask me why. And I remember I was at primary school. I was probably grade five or grade six. I was, you know, 11 or 12 years of age. And one of the kids who was an acquaintance, he wasn't really a friend. He just walked up to me in the playground one day and punched me in the face. And yes, I was bleeding from the nose, but it was more the what? What did I do? Like, where did that come from?

Pete:
At least let me earn it.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly. And it was just. And, well, apparently I'm not friends with him anymore. And but like I said, we weren't really bosom buddies anyway, but it was just like, why did you do that? And I remember I asked him about a year later and he couldn't even remember doing it. So I know. So that's how important I was. Important enough to punch in the face, but not important enough for you to remember doing it or why you did it.

Pete:
Or why you wanted to do it. Yeah. It's funny, I always like take Noah out. I remember probably a year or two ago we were playing footy a lot before Auskick. So that sort of AFL, run, kids, footy.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Clinic thing that happens on a weekly basis during winter. And there was a kid there who must have been like 12, 13 years old. And Noah was like, whoa, a teenager. It's so funny how the little kids are like, they they worship the older kids, but they don't give a shit about adults.

Ian:
No, no.

Pete:
They're like, you guys are two...

Ian:
Older kids are still kids.

Pete:
I know.

Ian:
But but they're closer to adults in size and skill.

Pete:
Even just one year difference is so much experience, right? Proportionately.

Ian:
And physical.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Ability.

Pete:
But he just walked up and he was just like holding the ball and being like, can you be my friend? And part of me is like dying on the inside being like, dude, you can't say that out loud. But the kid was like, sure!

Ian:
Sure!

Pete:
And then that night, Noah was just like, dude, I got a new friend.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
And I'm like, what's his name? And I was like, can't remember.

Ian:
Can't remember, but he's my friend.

Pete:
Yeah. That's it...

Ian:
And he'll be there next week!

Pete:
Exactly. Yeah. That was, I remember, you know, I remember that at, so Grad's house. Grad is your mum.

Ian:
My mum.

Pete:
So grandma and I used to call her Grad. Was it me who came up with it?

Ian:
It was you that, yeah. Because you couldn't say grandma.

Pete:
Yeah. And there were neighbours. The next door neighbours were, I think, twins. There were two young boys.

Ian:
I can't remember.

Pete:
Yeah. There were two young boys that lived next door. And I remember it was that thing of like, I would probably only go to Grad's house, what, once every..

Ian:
Once every few months. Yeah.

Pete:
And they would always just be like, you want to come play tennis? Like we would just see each other outside and they would just like, come on, you know, let's hang out. And so it was interesting. I can't remember their names or anything like that. And I don't even think they knew mine, but we would just hang out. And I guess kids just like doing that.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly.

Pete:
I was just social in that in that sense. What do you reckon makes it hard about being friends with other adults besides, obviously, the schedule thing? I feel like in Australia there's this kind of my cup's already full mentality.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Like I remember.

Ian:
I've got enough friends.

Pete:
Yeah. Well, when I have a story like that, when I was living on Hanover Street in Fitzroy going to Melbourne Uni. I was in a share house and there was a young woman called Simone who was married to, yeah, the guy that was living there as well. So Tom and Simone. And I remember having a birthday party and saying, Simone, are you going to come? Like it's at the house? Come down. You don't have to stay in your room the whole time. And she's like, I don't need to meet your friends. I've got enough friends. And I remember being like, what? Like, what are you?.. I was like, what the fuck?

Ian:
We're not asking you to commit.

Pete:
You don't have to marry any of us.

Ian:
Turn up.

Pete:
But I think it kind of. She was a few years older than me, and I remember just she was very. It was funny, I almost. Now, looking back, I appreciate how blunt and honest she was. Just all the time with this sort of shit. She's like, I'd be like, you know, do you want to do something? And she's like, I don't like you. Why would I do that?

Ian:
Okay. Fuck off. Yeah, you pay rent. That's enough.

Pete:
Yeah. That's interesting. We see each other in the morning, like while we're making coffee. Yeah, I remember that. And realising. Oh, okay. Maybe like, as you get older, you just decide my cup is full and I don't need any more until one of them drops off the perch or dies.

Ian:
That's right.

Pete:
I've got an opening.

Ian:
I don't have any.

Pete:
Yeah. That's it. Yeah. That's it. So do you feel like that's part of it? Do adults find it harder to maintain friends in Australia and therefore not bother? Is it a personality type thing? Is it a.

Ian:
I think it's personality. So I, I've got lots of acquaintances and very few friends.

Pete:
Well, and I guess it also depends on how you refer to them.

Ian:
That's. Yeah. Refer definitions but very few close friends.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And some of those close friends I see regularly, some of them I see very rarely. But I see some acquaintances a lot.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
But I don't necessarily hang out with them. You know, one on one or in small groups. So, I don't know. It's sort of hard to tell really. It's I think it depends on your personality. I'm, I'm an extrovert, but I don't like large groups.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Because they. I just find them annoying, you know? So I'm, I'm, I'm more of an intimate extrovert, if that makes sense.

Pete:
I want to be really loud in a small group.

Ian:
I enjoy being with people.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And...

Pete:
Under ten.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Not, not...

Ian:
Not age!

Pete:
Ten people under ten people.

Ian:
Kids are okay, but not as a social thing!

Pete:
Yeah. They keep, they keep calling the cops. When I go to the primary school, I just want to hang out with under tens.

Ian:
Yeah, that's not going to work. But- he's broken up now.

Pete:
We're gonna get cancelled!

Ian:
We're done. That's it.

Pete:
No more dark jokes.

Ian:
Yeah. But yeah, I think it's just I. And so I don't need to be with, you know, constantly having a whole lot of people around, but.

Pete:
Yeah. Fair enough.

Ian:
But other people do. Lots of people are, you know, are just will be will have a..

Pete:
Social butterflies, right.

Ian:
Yeah, they'll they'll have a social life that is full with hundreds of people that they are in contact with regularly.

Pete:
It's interesting because it's almost a strategy game, right? Like I imagine this with my, my grandmother who's still alive, mum's mum, and she has like a book with everyone's birthdays, dates, addresses, phone numbers, you know, and I imagine it's almost like it's a, a ritualistic kind of game that she's just whose birthday is it this week? Who do I call up on the phone and say g'day? And it's like, grandpa, my grandmother's husband, who's also still alive, is probably the complete polar opposite.

Ian:
Yes, he is the absolute introvert.

Pete:
If he, if he never saw his kids again, he would be okay. He'd be like, ah, whatever. You know, I'm okay just reading my books and being left alone. Like, don't talk to me.

Ian:
Well, you're funny because your mum's a bit like him too. That that. But she's a, she's the sort of the, the double reverse of me that I'm a, an intimate extrovert. Whereas she and her father are both gregarious introverts.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And that is they they're quite happy being by themselves. They don't really engage much in conversation or, or make social contact with people. But when they do, you can't shut them up. They, they just, you know, they're storytellers.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And so, so once they've got the ear of a person like you, your grandfather's a classic, you can, you know, we used to travel with them a lot, you know, and they'd come round and we'd be driving around, you'd go into the, you know, shop to buy a drink or, you know, fill up with fuel or whatever. And you turn around and there's my bloody father in law chatting to the person behind the counter for half an hour.

Pete:
Dying from the inside... Oh, the price of petrol!

Ian:
Exactly! You just start up a conversation and he's off. Yeah.

Pete:
It's funny. Mum and him. Yeah. They are sort of like that. And you sort of. You and you and mum. The dynamic is always interesting because mums I think you're much more interested in getting to the point and sharing the the sort of conclusion. Final information. Mum is much more about the journey.

Ian:
Gotta have the background.

Pete:
The story!

Ian:
That's right. I've got this really good thing I need to tell you. But there's a half an hour of background you need to know before I give you the punchline.

Pete:
And you're always. Like, get to the fucking point! Tell him. And it's so hard to because I'm like, I get it and I understand it and I want to indulge. But yeah, you're right. It's sometimes you just like, just tell me, mum, I don't care.

Ian:
I know.

Pete:
I don't care about all this side quest!

Ian:
And she doesn't, and she doesn't. And I've got a sister who does the same thing.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And, and.

Pete:
This is Ingrid?

Ian:
This is Ingrid, yeah. Who they were. Once they start a conversation, they cannot stop it. It's like I'm going to the toilet. If you want to follow me in there and keep talking, fine. But and. Oh, no, but I'm walking out the door and no, no, no. And it just keeps going and you go, really? Like a pause. Time out.

Pete:
Just give me five.

Ian:
I'm going to the shops. Do you need anything? No. But then off we go again.

Pete:
What, what makes friendships survive long gaps between catch ups, do you think?

Ian:
Uh, history?

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
If you've got a history with people like the the long gaps. I've got, you know, school friends that I see once every year or two years or ten years, and you just fall straight back into the same old relationship.

Pete:
Funny, isn't it? Right? Like after you have that kind of foundation, it's the same with me. There's been a few situations I can't think off the top of my head exactly who. Probably Sean was a good example, but where I realised I hadn't seen them since high school for like 15 years. 20 years, whatever it is now. And yet you meet them and it's kind of like you're still in that friendship from high school of like, you saw them the other day and you, you just like, oh, how's your day going? What are you still into this? What are you doing now? And it's like, it's weird, isn't it, that you can kind of it's not like they're a completely different human being like, and I think that when you're a young person, when you're like Noah's age, my son's age, you think everyone keeps changing at the same rate throughout their entire lives, right? Or that it even accelerates. But you you. I reckon that I'm probably still kind of the same person that I was in my late teens in terms of interests, personality, behaviour.

Ian:
I don't think we changed much.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Well, we might change our behaviours because that's dependent on the environment we're in. But I think our personalities are pretty much set.

Pete:
Yeah. I remember there's been a few of those movies or, you know, stories where you hear about someone not seeing someone from high school for 20 years and then they, they meet them again and they're a completely different person. They were once the worst bully at school, and now they're a Buddhist monk who's the friendliest person on earth. And I'm always just like, bullshit.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Like bullshit. That would never happen.

Ian:
Yeah. But but.

Pete:
Unless they had some kind of brain injury.

Ian:
But there are some amazing things. I've got a high school friend who was, his high school girlfriend. They broke up straight after high school.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And they both went off, got married, had kids, got divorced, met up with each other 30 years later and fell in love again and got married.

Pete:
It's weird, right? Well, I guess if the if two plus two was four in the past, it's probably still four in the future.

Ian:
Yeah. So it's I think it's history. It's that.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
You've got that established. Yeah. We don't need to play around. We have the relationship worked out. It's just it's like, have you turned into an axe murderer? No. Okay.

Pete:
Yeah. It's interesting that, isn't it? That connection I've had that with some ex-girlfriends that I had for a long time. You know, where you still hear from them and you kind of still have this emotional connection of like, are you doing alright? Is everything okay on your end? Like, I still care about you.

Ian:
Exactly.

Pete:
And it's almost, it's slightly more than a friendship, but less social than a friendship, you know? Like, I wouldn't ask.

Ian:
Someone to go and hang out with them.

Pete:
Yeah. The same sort of questions of like, emotionally. Are you thinking about having kids? Are you doing okay?

Ian:
You had a different it's an emotional relationship. When you have a a romantic relationship with someone, it is a different basis for the relationship.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And so you go back to not necessarily the romance, but you go back to the feelings you had and you want to make sure the person is okay with your mates. You still want to make sure they're okay, but you're not going to ask them every five minutes.

Pete:
Are you emotionally okay?

Ian:
Are you emotionally okay? Are things alright with you, you know.

Pete:
Do you want to shag again? Have you expect...

Ian:
What do you mean, again?

Pete:
Yeah. We never stopped! Have your expectations of a good friend changed as you've gotten older?

Ian:
I don't know.

Pete:
Just less clingy?

Ian:
Less clingy.

Pete:
If you got to hang out every month, man, this is not gonna work.

Ian:
Exactly. Yeah, I saw you five years ago.

Pete:
I know, just just we got a stage ten clinger.

Ian:
Cling- cling on! It's. You start laughing at your own joke and cough before you've even got the punchline out. So, yeah.

Pete:
The perks of getting older. Yeah. So have your expectations changed?

Ian:
I think I've just got more relaxed.

Pete:
Yeah. You just let people do what they're gonna do.

Ian:
Yeah. People will be who they are. And you just take it all.

Pete:
Come and go. And I think, I guess I think I've sort of gotten to that point to some degree in the last few years as well, where especially once you have kids and you're quite busy with life and everything, you kind of can't be as brutal with cutting people off because they didn't perform how you expected or well there.

Ian:
Yeah, some people are bridge burners.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
You know, we have an acquaintance and who's like that? I have a relative who is like that. But, you know, you you screw up one thing and you'll never be spoken to again.

Pete:
You're on the list.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly.

Pete:
I've got a little black book with your name in it.

Ian:
Yeah, well, your name used to be in it. It's just crossed out.

Pete:
Yeah, that's it!

Ian:
That page is torn out.

Pete:
A blowtorch to it.

Ian:
And I, you know, those sort of people I can't be bothered with.

Pete:
Yeah. Too much drama.

Ian:
Well, yeah, but often they're high maintenance as well. They have such high expectations of other people.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And when those other people don't meet those expectations, they're just dumped. It's sort of like, well, your expectations were unreasonable. You know, this is entirely on you. It's not on them.

Pete:
Did you ever find that friendships changed after people got married or in relationships?

Ian:
Yeah. Yeah.

Pete:
That was one thing that I noticed once I was out of probably out of uni and everyone started coupling up. That, and again, I can only talk about this from a male point of view, it's probably similar or there's some analogy on the female side of it, but a lot of the guys just suddenly shut down and disappeared and became less social. It was almost like they were. They're probably the introverted friends too, where they just, they found their person and they were like, well, my cup's full.

Ian:
Yeah. Well, I suppose there's also a little bit of it too, that, you know, you find a partner, boyfriend, girlfriend. And your relationship with them is not based on the same things that your relationship with your mates is.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And so the two can't mix. And, and so you can't sort of just, you know, drag the girlfriend or boyfriend into your, you know, clique of friends...

Pete:
Go work, be friends!

Ian:
They'll yeah, they'll just be a, you know, a.

Pete:
Ball and chain.

Ian:
Ball. Well, ball and chain or they'll be uncomfortable or everybody else will be uncomfortable.

Pete:
Well, that's what happened with me with one of my best friends from high school, right. So he ended up marrying someone who didn't like me very much. She was massive, left leaning, politically correct. You know, Australia's a really racist, awful place. And if you say otherwise, you're an idiot. And I would just always argue with her. And it got to the point where because he, he's an introverted type of person who was just always with her and she couldn't drive and she didn't have a job, so she was just always coming with him no matter where he was. That I think it got easier for him to just be like.

Ian:
Just say, this is just too hard.

Pete:
Yeah, I'm not, I'm just tapping out. And it was weird because I remember having a go at him one time and just saying, can you give like your partner my number so I can get her to call me so I can apologise and get things to work out? And he was like, oh yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure. And nothing happened. I was just like, ah.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
I guess it's just that, the path of least resistance.

Ian:
So that, that one's a very specific, active example of that happening. But I think a lot of the time it's just and look, when you're young, you know, you're young and you're, you know, hooking up with a partner and, you know, love and sex and, that intimate relationship you have with somebody is far more demanding of your ego than just hanging out with your friends. And so you'll tend to do that at the expense of hanging out with your friends. But. But then sometimes you, you know, in the end, I suppose it, it amounts to whether you can find somebody who is already part of that group as well. And then it just falls into place.

Pete:
Yeah. All right. Optional rapid fire questions that we've got at the end. I guess they're non-optional because..

Ian:
Non-optional. Because you're going to make me answer them.

Pete:
That's it. You better. One close mate, or a big group?

Ian:
Close mate.

Pete:
Spontaneous call, or message first?

Ian:
Spontaneous call.

Pete:
Dinner party or coffee?

Ian:
Don't drink coffee?

Pete:
Just the walk!

Ian:
Dinner party.

Pete:
A friend you see weekly, or a friend you can tell anything to?

Ian:
A friend I can tell anything to.

Pete:
You're not really a big like a secret sharer, though, are you, Dad?

Ian:
No. Not really.

Pete:
He's like, no, but, you.

Ian:
No, but but then if you've got a friend that you feel comfortable that you could do that with rather than whether you do or not.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And there's 1 or 2 that I have.

Pete:
Yep. Cool. All right. Well, I guess we should open that up to you guys. You'll have to send me some messages, leave some comments, say g'day and tell us about your friendships. And is it hard? I guess that was..

Ian:
Do you want to be friends?

Pete:
Yeah. That's it. I wanted to make this episode to give people an insight into what it's like as an adult Australian, I guess making friends because I get so many of my students and followers telling me I can't make friends with Aussies. It's so hard. I guess that would be the final question for you. What would your advice be to migrants about making friends with Australians? Is there a secret to it you feel?

Ian:
I think well, I think it's the same with anybody. But it's more difficult when there are cultural differences.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
But it's finding points of similarity. You can come from very different cultural backgrounds, religious backgrounds, belief systems and so on. But if you're both enjoy hang out in the backyard with a barbecue.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Then you'll, it'll work out. If you both like going to the football or soccer or you. You've got kids and your kids get along.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Yeah. They'll be finding something that is, that is common.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Because that's what friendships are based on. You can't make a friend.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
You, we, we use that term making friends, but we don't make friends. You just friends. You become friends.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And you become friends based on situations that you're in.

Pete:
Yeah. And I guess that's it. It's sort of like dating, right? If you're not leaving your house and it's going to be hard to find someone to date or have a girlfriend or boyfriend. But if you're putting yourself in social situations on a regular basis, you're much more likely to find the right person or at least meet someone worth dating. It's probably the same with friends, right? If you're not going out and meeting other people from Australia going where Aussies are, you know, then you're probably not likely to make many Aussie friends. So.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly.

Pete:
Look where the Aussies are and try and find social things and you know, join clubs or do.

Ian:
Yeah. And I think it's it's also a, and it's the same thing about you talk about dating, you know, what's the best way to make a successful date? It's the same thing with the best way to be, make a successful relationship with somebody that you might be a friend. And that is stop trying to be interesting and be interested.

Pete:
Yep. I always say that.

Ian:
Be interested in the other person not trying to. Don't try and impress them with who you are.

Pete:
I know well, it was like you were talking about the, the plane.

Ian:
The plane spotter.

Pete:
Clearly, he was just so interested in his own world and trying to tell you about it that he forgot or didn't realise that maybe he should ask you about your life.

Ian:
Exactly.

Pete:
I don't care about that. Yeah, like I remember there used to be this girl that I studied with at uni, and you could just see in her eyes anytime you were speaking to her. She was just waiting for her turn to talk.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
And it wouldn't be a question. It would just be talking about herself. And it would just get to that point of mid-sentence. You'd be telling her something like blah, blah, blah, blah.

Ian:
Oh really? And well, you think about that.

Pete:
I would just see the look in her eyes and be like. There we go. You want to tell me something? Just tell me. I know you're not listening to it. Just get to what you want to say. Just tell me, you know. All right. Thanks for joining us, guys, and we'll see you next time.

Ian:
See ya!