Transcript of AE 1433 - The Goss: Why Do Aussies Love Camping?

Pete:
Why does rain on a tent sound so unbelievably good, Dad?

Ian:
Okay!

Pete:
Dad doesn't even know what the topic is yet.

Ian:
No! It's rain on tent. It's the same as rain on a tin roof, which is no longer made of tin, but, on a metal roof. I think it's... We enjoy as humans white noise. Because it distracts us from other things. So it's, it's calming.

Pete:
It is, it's almost more stressful if everything's quiet and you can hear anything that makes a noise, you...

Ian:
Can clearly hear your own heart beating.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
But no, it's, I think it's the white noise thing. It's just that and it has a, a rhythm to it. It's not just like radio static, which is.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Because rain is not constant. You Yeah. It'll be you'll be getting different patterns of raining.

Pete:
Intensity will go up and down.

Ian:
And it's like a surf if you're, we live near a surf beach and when the surf's up, you can hear it at night in particular when there's less other noise around. And it's not just straight white noise because there's a rhythm to it. That is the rhythm has multiple layers to it. So every wave has its own sound, but then the backwash and there's different frequencies of waves and stuff. So.

Pete:
It's interesting how that changes depending on how close to the beach you are too.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
Like if you're really close to it, you can kind of hear the distinction between the different waves and the rhythm of it.

Ian:
Just going to crack a tinny.

Pete:
Crack a tinny! And the further away you are, the more you just hear, in the background, right?

Ian:
Mhm.

Pete:
G'day, guys! Welcome to the Aussie English podcast. Grab a cuppa, get comfy and let's have a yarn. You know, Australians really do seem to be obsessed with camping. Even the people who spend half the trip complaining about the mozzies, the cold or sleeping on the ground somewhere end up planning the next one only a few months later. And I don't think it's because we enjoy being uncomfortable. I reckon it's because camping changes the way we experience time. Life slows down. The little things start to matter again, and somehow we feel a bit calmer. So today we're talking about those tiny moments that make camping such a relaxing part of Australian life.

Pete:
So what's the first thing you notice, Dad, when you arrive somewhere that you're going camping? When you you've you've gone for a long drive. You've reached the location you're going to be camping at. You get out of the car. What is the first thing you notice or pay attention to?

Ian:
First thing I look for? Or the first thing I notice? The first thing I notice is a cat crawling out from under the couch. Hang on, I'm just going to open the door. Time out.

Pete:
I saw this ruffling in the background like, what the fuck is going on?

Ian:
Around, his head comes out, peers from under the couch. All right. Go back to camping. Yeah. Well, look for is you're looking for a place that is going to be a suitable campsite. So is it going to be under a tree that is likely to drop a branch and kill you?

Pete:
Ah. Widow maker.

Ian:
Widow makers. Yeah. Is it, got good drainage? So if it rains, you're not going to get flooded. Is it, if you're by the beach. Is it close to the beach but not so close that the track to the beach is right next door and everybody's going to be trampling through your campsite.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So those sort of just environmental things. But then what do you look at? It's and you talked about time slows down. I think that's the thing is that it's when you when I go out camping, when there's, it's a cliche, but when there's nothing to do, you do nothing. And.

Pete:
I just get anxious.

Ian:
So. And so.

Pete:
I need to be doing something!

Ian:
Need to be doing something. I think you get that from your mother. Yeah. I just look at it and go, well, I can actually sit here and do nothing for an hour.

Pete:
Just meditate, just mindfulness.

Ian:
Yeah. Might- well, don't get me started on that one. Mindful.

Pete:
None of your hippy shit.

Ian:
Yeah. No, the concept is fine. The word's just wrong.

Pete:
Yes.

Ian:
We can do an entire episode on that.

Pete:
Mindlessness.

Ian:
Exactly. It is mindlessness. That's important. Stop thinking about other things. And that's what camping does for me, is that you can actually just go and, you know, potter around in the bush or the beach or by a river or whatever it happens to be. Sometimes I enjoy just sitting in a campground and watching the world go by. And the world is just other people and cars and stuff. But it's.

Pete:
Funny how much I noticed the other day that I'm, I really desire that at the moment. A moment like that, like we went to the farm about a week and a half, two weeks ago. And those moments are so important of just like being somewhere away from everything, not having any immediate things, you know.

Ian:
Responsibilities other than other children, breathing.

Pete:
Having nature, having animals, having nice weather, any kind of weather really and just experiencing. It's yeah.

Ian:
It's irritating, but it's just a different thing.

Pete:
It's still kind of cool. But.

Ian:
I just sit in the tent and listen to the rain.

Pete:
Yeah. Exactly.

Ian:
Although I don't camp in a tent anymore, I camp in a van. But.

Pete:
I think the first thing that came to my mind when I asked you this question was arriving at Tidal River.

Ian:
Yeah. It's a different experience.

Pete:
Getting down into our campground, and it was usually from memory. It was usually close to the river. So you, I.

Ian:
When you were little kids, we camped by the river.

Pete:
Yeah. I can distinctly remember having a campsite where you could literally walk through the sort of ten metres or so of bush. Onto the sand where the river is. Yeah. And then just noticing, I think, getting out of the car and noticing how quiet it was and the birds and the sounds and the water. And I think that that's probably, I think, what most people are wanting to go camping for, right? They just want to be somewhere where..

Ian:
Oh, the serenity!

Pete:
Exactly. Right. You don't have as much noise. There's no car sounds all of this.

Ian:
And there's nothing to do!

Pete:
Artificial life. Yeah.

Ian:
Even though, even though camping, there is a lot to do. Because if you get there and if you're in a tent, then it's setting up the tents and setting up the campsite and getting the cooking stuff out. And, and all of those things take more time than they do at home because you're not bringing your entire kitchen with you that's got everything there. You've got, you know, you've got your food in an esky or a small car fridge or something, and it's all buried underneath it. It's not like neatly shelved in the fridge and the freezer and things. So yeah, it all takes a bit longer, but that's okay because it's.

Pete:
Part of the process.

Ian:
The only thing you're there to do is just to hang out. And if cooking dinner takes you longer or whatever, then it takes longer. It's just.

Pete:
It's, it's funny. A shameless callback to a previous episode, I think I did with Kel a few weeks ago where we were talking about camping. And I wanted to ask you, while you're here, I remember a camping trip where we went somewhere and the moment we arrived it was pissing down with rain. It was you, me, Annika, my sister, and my mum. So, Jo, you had to get the tent ready with me.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
And I think Annie and Mum from...

Ian:
That was Wilsons Prom.

Pete:
Was it? Yes! So. Okay, so you remember that?

Ian:
Oh, yeah.

Pete:
Yeah. Can you tell the story?

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Just so that listeners get it from both sides.

Ian:
Yeah. So we we arrived in the dark. Well, Wilsons Promontory, from where we were living at the time, was about three and 3 to 4 hours drive. And when you've got younger children, because you guys were probably, I don't know, seven and nine, six and eight, something like that. And so you don't just sort of sit in the car for four hours and drive or three hours and drive. You stop along the way. We'd probably stop somewhere to get food to eat for dinner and things.

Pete:
Fish and chips. Right.

Ian:
Fish and chicps...

Pete:
Where was it that we used to go?

Ian:
Fish and chips.

Pete:
On the way to Wilsons Prom?

Ian:
At Tooradin.

Pete:
Tooradin?

Ian:
Tooradin Fish and chips.

Pete:
There you go. Check that place out, guys!

Ian:
Check it out. There are two fish and chip shops there. They're both good, but one of them has cheese, bacon and onion fritters. I know it's.

Pete:
Heart attack!

Ian:
Yeah. You need you need to have a certificate from your cardiologist in order to order it.

Pete:
Is this the place where there's one fish and chip place where you can eat behind it, and there's a river there or there's some water?

Ian:
Yeah, it's an inlet.

Pete:
An inlet. Because I remember being there and there were jellyfish in the water!

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
And I remember being what the...

Ian:
It's a tidal inlet.

Pete:
Obviously that's where they grow up though. Or they got washed in?

Ian:
No they just they come in in the tide.

Pete:
Yeah. Okay.

Ian:
Anyway, so Tooradin Fish and Chips. So we got there and it was pissing down with rain. It was just belting down with rain.

Pete:
Had it been raining the whole way down or it just started?

Ian:
No, I think well it, it wasn't when we left, but it was by the time we got there. And so there's the well, do we all just sit in the car for the whole night?

Pete:
Yes, because it was evening, right.

Ian:
All people sleeping, sleeping in a. And it was actually, I think, the little yellow Mitsubishi van that we had probably.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And so four of us sleeping in there was not going to work.

Pete:
Not easily.

Ian:
Not easily. And so, and we had a big sort of double room tent.

Pete:
Yeah. That was that big green canvas.

Ian:
Yeah. The big green canvas thing. And so for two people, for your mum and I, it would probably take us 20 minutes under perfect conditions to set that up.

Pete:
Yeah. Without wetting the interior.

Ian:
Yeah. In the dark and the rain.

Pete:
With an...

Ian:
With an eight year old assistant. Who was sick of this after 30s. It probably took at least half an hour to set it up badly. But that's all just part of the gig.

Pete:
I distinctly remember you yelling at me for not holding the poles correctly. And it's funny because I think I've had those same moments with now, you know, when I had that moment. So again, we're getting off topic, but I have a greenhouse in my backyard, right? A small one. And inside of it a cacti and succulent plants. So I keep them in there so they don't get too wet and they stay hotter When I had to put that together, I needed Noah's help. Jesus Christ. Just hold the pole straight because I had to line up all the...

Ian:
Just hold the pole. I don't need it straight or not. Just hold it.

Pete:
He was holding himself straight, but letting it fall down. So yes, I got my comeuppance.

Ian:
And that was a bit of. That's one of those where you're dealing with those large tents.

Pete:
Yes. It wasn't easy.

Ian:
Back in the days where there were, you know, corner poles and everything else. You actually had to have somebody holding poles. You could do it by yourself. But not in the rain.

Pete:
Was heavy canvas stuff, too.

Ian:
Yeah, heavy canvas.

Pete:
It wasn't those easy ones that you can sort of just open up and erect now with like the click of a button or you just untie it.

Ian:
So yeah, that was fun.

Pete:
Yeah. Okay. So that was.

Ian:
It was Wilson's Prom.

Pete:
See guys. So you'll be able to go and compare my telling of that story and dad's and you can pick which one you like better.

Ian:
Yeah. So truth or.

Pete:
When does it actually start feeling like you're camping, Dad.

Ian:
Feeling like. Yeah, well, I have a, an endorphin response to a road trip that starts about five seconds after driving the car. And it actually is a thing. I can recognise it.

Pete:
So can I. It's when you're there going...

Ian:
It's when you get in a car and you go, we're on a holiday. And it's just very different from driving to Melbourne, which is from our place about an hour and a half or two hours, depending on the traffic.

Pete:
Yeah, that would stress you out. That'll do the opposite, right?

Ian:
Yeah. I don't particularly get stressed driving. I don't care about traffic unless I've got an appointment that I need to get to. Then traffic is traffic. It's just people go, oh, the traffic is horrendous. And you go, no, traffic's just the traffic.

Pete:
Yeah. But for me, it's like I'd rather be somewhere else.

Ian:
Yeah, but. But you're going to somewhere. But, but yeah, I, I just have this endorphin kick in immediately that I get in there and go, oh, road trip. But yeah, so when do I first get that experience of camping?

Pete:
Immediately.

Ian:
By the time I get into second gear in the car. But yeah, it's more it's normally when I get to somewhere that is recognisably close to where I'm going. If it's somewhere that I've never been before, then it will probably be, you know, where if I get to the beach or a forest or whatever. So then you go, oh, this is going to be cool. Or driving along a river, and it might be still 100km along the river. By the time you get to where you're going to be camping. But you know, we're here now. So.

Pete:
What's your favourite smell with camping? Is there a specific one that stands out?

Ian:
Oh, there are two.

Pete:
Yep.

Ian:
Eucalyptus.

Pete:
Mhm.

Ian:
So eucalyptus forests.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And the sea.

Pete:
Yeah. Okay.

Ian:
The salt and the iodine from kelp. Usually.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Yeah. And it's that combination. You get, you get you, you know, when you're close to the sea, if you're used to being by the sea, you go, oh, there's the beach, you know.

Pete:
I think for me it's, that's, it's that sound. That would be the first thing like the beach.

Ian:
But.

Pete:
You are even just in the bush. Yeah, you would hear that for sure. Yes. No. I'm sorry. The beach made me think of that. But smell wise, it would be that wet forest, like the..

Ian:
Which is mulch..

Pete:
Leaf mulch that's, like, decaying. And there's this smell of it in the air that, I don't know, it's not like musty or anything, right? It's just this kind of like, foresty fresh...

Ian:
Got its own smell.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And you combine that with the eucalyptus smell.

Pete:
Exactly. It's cool. It's to die for bottle that. Yeah, but what about your favourite sounds then? What are the things you normally..

Ian:
Surf.

Pete:
Just the surf.

Ian:
Yeah. Surf. And birds in the bush.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
If you, you know, you get out of the car and a forest, and you just hear birds around you.

Pete:
Mhm.

Ian:
You just go, oh, this is good. And it's got little to do with. It's it's hard to separate, but for me, it's little to do with that. Oh, this is a bird photography opportunity or a bird watching opportunity. It's just this is we're in the bush.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
This is what the bush sounds like. And sometimes it's wind in the trees. But often it's just you hear birds twittering around you.

Pete:
I love the wind in the trees.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Especially when it is quite windy. And you get that.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
And it like comes in pulses.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
You know.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
It's quite nice. What's your favourite part of the day. To camp at, I guess. Well, like favourite time of day at the camp. Oh rather.

Ian:
Two. First thing in the morning.

Pete:
First thing at night.

Ian:
And after eating at night.

Pete:
Yeah. Why is that? Is that when all the animals start waking up...

Ian:
No. Well, first thing in the morning, it's just. Yeah. It's that the world is just coming alive. And then in the evening, it's just that. Just sit down and relax. There is nothing left to do now that I'm required to do other than go to bed. So if I just sit here, put my feet up, have a beer, have a whisky, have a snooze in the camp chair, whatever it happens to be, then it's just it's just that relaxation opportunity where there is no responsibility for anything other than yourself.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So different if you've got children with you and things, but they're in bed, hopefully asleep. Then it's just a chance to sit around and it could be just, you know, poking a stick into the campfire if you've got a fire, uh, if you haven't got a fire, then it's just sitting around and just listening to the world, which you tend, we tend not to do at home. It's don't, don't go. And I could do that in the backyard. I could just go and sit in the backyard and listen to the surf and listen to the wind and the trees and the birds.

Pete:
Yes.

Ian:
But you don't do it because when you're at home, there's always something else to do. There's always that other person that's on your shoulder nagging in your ear, going, you need to mow the grass. You're going to cut this. You're going to, you know, do the washing, you know, unpack the dishwasher, whatever it happens to be. There's always something else to do.

Pete:
Yes.

Ian:
But when you're out on holidays in general, that's less likely. But camping as well, it's you're out in a bush or the beach or something. And it's just it's that Relaxation where there is no nagging responsibility to do anything else.

Pete:
Yeah. So once you've arrived at the place and everything's set up, the little rituals begin. What are the first little rituals that you start doing?

Ian:
If I'm camping by myself in the van.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And it would be the same thing for a tent, but it's, but if I'm in the van, then it's, it's look for a site if I've found a site or if I've been allocated one. Because if I'm, if I'm booking in a campground, you, you get usually you get allocated a site. So I haven't got the choice of. No, I don't like this one. I'm going to go somewhere else. Then it's find the best angle for the van so that a it's as close to level as possible. So I'm not, you know, sleeping at a weird angle.

Pete:
I hadn't thought about that because obviously it'd be the same with caravans. Right. You're constantly looking for a flat spot.

Ian:
Yeah. And it's the same with if you're setting up a tent, you don't want your tent on a hill. And then it's finding somewhere where, you know, the, the side, the door that I'm going to open has room to move. So I can set up the awning, set up a, you know, a mat outside, get the kitchen set up. So tables and chairs and or a chair for me, if it's just me. And then it's usually go for a walk.

Pete:
Yeah. Is there somewhere specific, like, have you got an idea in mind when you go for a walk? Or do you just literally just go and have a look around?

Ian:
Be there? Yeah, particularly if I haven't been somewhere before. It's go and find, you know, where are the toilets, the showers, the the track to the river, the beach, the where, the interesting things about it. Or just look at the place and see what's around.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Yeah. Because often you'll know where the toilets and showers are because you've got a little plan of your campground that says your campgrounds here and the toilets and showers are over there. And if there's a shop, you know where that is. And yeah, the tracks to the beach are usually marked. If I mentioned the beach a lot because I tend to go to beaches. But.

Pete:
There's a recurring pattern.

Ian:
Yes, but I do go to, you know, up in the bush and the rivers and or just out in the desert or semi-desert places. Sometimes there, you know, you just go there and go, well, I need to know what this environments like, you know, and then it's usually that walk rarely happens without a camera. It's for me.

Pete:
Is that because you're specifically looking for birds to photograph or...

Ian:
Just landscapes or anything? I might, and often the first time I go, I might not actually take a camera. I'll just have my phone with me and I'll be framing up stuff going, yeah, in the morning when the sun rises over my shoulder, this is going to have some good light on it, but.

Pete:
Is that hard to turn off? Or do you not mind..

Ian:
It's impossible to turn off.

Pete:
Yeah, because it's sort of like I remember that...

Ian:
See the world in a rectangle.

Pete:
Yeah. I remember when I got deeply into photography once we'd moved to Canberra, and for a year or so after that, it felt like you were just constantly looking at how to frame things up.

Ian:
Yeah, I see the world in a rectangle.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And it drives your mother nuts, in a in a generic sense. Because I'm always going, oh, that would make a great photograph. What?

Pete:
Who cares? Yeah.

Ian:
And oh, look at the light here. And I, you know, I could say you can't turn it off.

Pete:
It's one of those interesting things where that light too. I remember learning more about photography and taking photos in the golden hour, right in the morning or the evening when the sun is really low and you get this soft golden light.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Being really sensitive to that now like that, I noticed that at different times, like there was something the other day where we had like some, it's one of those moments where the sun's setting, you've got clouds that are in the sky, but there's a gap on the horizon and the sun gets below the the gap..

Ian:
Sun glows on the clouds.

Pete:
And exact- that is amazing when that happens. Right? So yeah, I remember that happening about a week or so ago.

Ian:
A little bit of fog.

Pete:
Yeah. Yeah. And it just feels like you're in some kind of weird video game.

Ian:
And it is one of those things where you try and describe that to people and they go, I don't know what you're talking about, but when they see it..

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
They know.

Pete:
And there's often a rainbow. You'll see a rainbow. Sometimes, if it's like mist or raining..

Ian:
The best, often the best light is after a storm.

Pete:
Yeah. When the clouds are clearing and the sun's just coming out. So what food are you normally tucking straight into? Do you have specific food or drink that you normally get straight into when you're camping?

Ian:
Well, drink, it depends on when I arrive.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So if I'm you, typically I'm arriving at a campsite because often I don't stay in the same place for very long.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So I might be 1 or 2 nights. So I'll arrive at a location mid to late afternoon. So the first thing that opened is a beer. And, and then I'll set up, and then food wise, I tend to have a combination of foods that I can either heat up quickly if it's crappy weather and I don't want to be cooking outdoors because I don't cook inside the van. It's only a small van and I hate the idea of cooking inside it.

Pete:
That's a quick way to get carbon monoxide poisoning.

Ian:
Well, yeah, but also there's food smells in there. You never get rid of them.

Pete:
You don't cook bacon in there?

Ian:
No. Exactly. Or garlic. And so I'll often have things that I can just heat up quickly. And I have, you know, pre made meals. So I'll cook a curry for instance and just vacuum seal it.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And so that and a.

Pete:
You mean before you've gone camping?

Ian:
Before I go camping, before I go camping, I'll...

Pete:
So you just have to heat it.

Ian:
I'll have a couple of those. So literally is just throw the vacuum sealed thing into a, into boiling water.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Heat it up for five minutes with those, you know, the little microwave packs of rice.

Pete:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that can go in the water...

Ian:
They work really well.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
In fact, they work even better. Here's a hint for you. If you want to get those, those little microwave rice packs, don't cook them in a microwave. Just pop the pack into boiling water for about five minutes. It actually, for whatever reason, it doesn't cook it as much. It just heats it up.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So, so that's just, you know, literally throw the packet of curry and the packet of rice in boiling water and heat it up and then split them open and it's done. Then other times it's meat and salad mostly.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So, but that's when I have to cook the meat and that relies on being outside for longer. There are times where I and I usually have a loaf of bread with me, so. And lunch is often just either bread or, you know, standard sliced bread or I'll have wraps.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And flatbread wraps. And so, you know, every now and then if it's pissing with rain and I don't want to cook, it'll be just ham and salad wrap tonight.

Pete:
So do you ever have a campfire?

Ian:
Occasionally.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
But often it's more trouble than it's worth.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And often I'm camping in national parks where you, you can't collect firewood. You have to bring it with you.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And I don't have any room in the van other than throwing it on the roof. And I don't really like driving with firewood on the roof of the van.

Pete:
That's a bit of a weird. I don't think I've seen anyone do that.

Ian:
Oh, lots of people.

Pete:
You reckon? Yeah.

Ian:
You know, if you've got a roof rack, but. Yeah, which I do, but I, so if I'm somewhere where I can either buy wood or if I'm not in a national park and I can collect firewood, I will, but not often.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And if you're by yourself, it's sort of, you know, a little bit not pointless, but it's not as much fun sitting around a campfire by yourself.

Pete:
Do you ever take like, a billy with you to heat up over a fire, or is that a bit old school?

Ian:
Well, I don't drink tea or coffee, so.

Pete:
Yeah. You don't really care too much about that.

Ian:
No, I don't really care about that too much. I'm not a hot drink drinker.

Pete:
Why is that? Is it the taste of the two? Is it the hot aspect to the drink?

Ian:
No, I don't mind hot drinks.

Pete:
Never liked either of them.

Ian:
Well, I I've never liked tea.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
I used to be a coffee drinker. I gave it up when I was at university and I was drinking ten cups a day.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And, yeah, getting flutters in the heart and bouncing off the walls and going, which is stupid.

Pete:
Substitute it for coke.

Ian:
Yeah, but but I don't drink ten of those a day. I might drink two.

Pete:
Only nine!

Ian:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm up to my limit. Single figures is fine. Yeah.

Pete:
Oh, God. All right. So do you reckon food tastes better outside? Do you reckon that's a big part of the eating experience? Does it add to the, the succulence of the meat?

Ian:
I don't know that food tastes better, but the eating experience is different. Yeah. Even if I go to a cafe or a restaurant and there is outdoor seating.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Providing it's not raining or 40 degrees in blazing sunshine. I prefer to sit outside and maybe it's just because it's different. But I just like, you know, eating outdoors is better. Although when you're out camping, there's usually flies and mozzies.

Pete:
And it's just nice though eating and watching the world go by. Right? It's like having fish and chips at the beach or, you know, getting...

Ian:
Fish and chips at the beach is different from sitting at the dining table. With a. Even if you had. Here's my same, you know, bag of chips and fish and stuff. Put it on the dining table. It's not the same as. Stick it beside you and watch the surf and.

Pete:
Just perving on the action. Having a look at the action, seeing what's going on once you've cooked and everything, how do you deal with dishes? How do you deal with all that stuff? Do you do? Do you tend to wash it somewhere nearby?

Ian:
Well, if I'm cooking with yeah, let's, let's imagine the, the curry and rice situation. I've boiled those up so that boiling water then becomes the dish water. And often it's if I'm particularly if I'm somewhere where they're not providing water.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So I've got to bring my own and water is scarce.

Pete:
Otherwise you just use sand.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly. But no, I actually, one of the things I do if I'm not using water is I just have a little squeeze bottle, a spray bottle, that has very dilute detergent in it. So I'll just spray the detergent over a plate and a knife and fork or whatever and wiped them down and then maybe rinse them with a. With pure water very quickly. So I'm not actually using five litres of water in order just to wash the dishes. But normally if I've got water provided, if I'm at a campground that's providing water, I'll literally just boil up some water and throw it in a, you know, I use a rectangular bucket thing and use that as my sink and wash the dishes.

Pete:
Do you prefer doing all this on your own, or with family?

Ian:
I, I like...

Pete:
You can be honest.

Ian:
I like both. But it's a different experience. When you're on your own, you're on your own.

Pete:
You can just do whatever you want.

Ian:
And you can do whatever you want. When you're with family, with adults, it's different, but when there's kids, then it's all of a sudden it's all about the children.

Pete:
It's no longer holiday.

Ian:
It's well, it isn't. It's you just, you know, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's yeah. When it's about the children, then it's about the children. And, you know, finally they get off to sleep and you can sit around and have a chat or whatever.

Pete:
For an hour.

Ian:
For an hour, and then they're yahoo-ing around again. But.

Pete:
No. No, then it's time to go to bed.

Ian:
Yeah. Well, that's the other thing I, I find that, you know, normally if on a normal day, I will probably wake up between 6 and 7 and I might go back to sleep again for an hour, but I'll be up by eight ish.

Pete:
You mean when you're not.

Ian:
No. A normal day at home.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Um. And I'll prob I very rarely go to bed before midnight.

Pete:
Mhm.

Ian:
And when I'm out camping, I'm up five minutes before the sun rises.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And I'll be in bed by 8:00 at night.

Pete:
Yeah. An hour..

Ian:
If I'm by myself.

Pete:
Yeah. Or assuming the sun's not up. Like if it's summer.

Ian:
Yeah. If it's the middle of summer, I might not.

Pete:
Yeah. You're gonna follow the circadian rhythm type thing with the sun and everything.

Ian:
But also I can, you know, with the being in the van, I can sit and watch the, you know, videos or TV or whatever on an iPad. So I've got the iPad set up in the van that I can just lie there in the bed or sit and watch TV or.

Pete:
So what is your evening routine usually like? If you're by yourself?

Ian:
If I've been photographing, then it'll be just downloading and backing up the photos.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
I might go through them and process a couple just for the entertainment value. But.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Because I've always got a laptop with me. And then it'll be. Yeah. And then often I'm doing that while I'm cooking.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
You know, while you're heating up water or whatever, you're downloading stuff and then that just takes its time. And then it'll be just sit around until you decide it's bedtime, but bedtime could be in, in winter. It could be 7:00 at night.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And I'll just go there and just, you know, watch a couple of episodes of TV and start to doze off and go, alright, it's sleep time and you find yourself asleep at 8:30 at night.

Pete:
Yeah, it is funny how much the lack of artificial light gets you to sort of get ready. Your body obviously just detects that.

Ian:
It just winds down.

Pete:
Yeah. And gets ready to go to sleep...

Ian:
But also, I think the other thing too, is if you're up at 6:00 in the morning and you're on the go all day, even if you're just driving.

Pete:
You're right.

Ian:
If I drive for six hours during the day driving, I don't find driving stressful. But.

Pete:
You're on.

Ian:
But you're on. Yeah, it's it's passive activity. Your brain is on the whole time.

Pete:
I was doing this today, I think on the way home from dropping my wife at work, I was sort of just mindfully watching my eyes and what I was looking at. And it was funny how much I was noticing them dart between different cars and looking at different parts of cars. Are they indicating looking at the tires? Are they coming across the lane, looking for where people are crossing...

Ian:
Rear vision mirror?

Pete:
Yeah. And just noticing how active I can be despite. One part of my brain thinks, oh, I'm just chilling out in the car not doing anything. And the other part of my brain is just trying to pay attention to everything.

Ian:
The mechanics of driving is completely automatic.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
But the environment you're constantly checking.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Yeah. It's like watching a we've just got a new kitten and it's like watching the kitten in playing in the down in the family room. She's surveying the whole environment, constantly looking around and looking around. Looking around. Oh, there's another toy. Oh, there's another. Oh, there's another cat. All the dogs outside.

Pete:
Everything's new!

Ian:
Everything's new. But. And none of that is conscious.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
She's not out there, you know, she'll go and look for a toy and find it and play with it. But mostly it's just this subconscious checking out the world.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And that's what cats do. That's what most animals do, whether they're predators or prey. And driving is the same thing. You're just constantly on.

Pete:
So why do you think Aussies love camping at the beach? Because I feel like that's a more popular area, right? I don't know if I'm biased. Being down here in Victoria.

Ian:
85% I think it is. It might be higher than that, but 85% of Australians live within 50km of the coast.

Pete:
Yeah. Okay.

Ian:
So...

Pete:
Because yeah, if you're if you're in the say you are, I don't know.

Ian:
All of our capital cities, state capital cities, not the national one, but all of our state capitals are on the coast.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And.

Pete:
But the draw is usually towards the coast, not inland, even though inland is probably equally beautiful and interesting. And there's plenty to do, at least from my view of the world. I feel like most people would be drawn instantly to the beach. They wouldn't be drawn inland.

Ian:
I think the other thing, too, is that most people in Australia, if they're going away on a holiday, will do it over summer because that's the longest period of school holidays.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
It's also usually the best weather. And so where do you want to go in summer. You want to go to the beach.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
You know, you're not going to go out to the, you know, outback in summer.

Pete:
Let's go bake.

Ian:
50 degrees and yeah. So, so I think that's the thing is that, but also this, we live by the coast and so it's easy. You don't have to go far to get to the beach. And we, yeah, swimming is our national sport.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
You look at the. Yeah, we've just had the Commonwealth Games and and we won literally won more than half the events in the swimming.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And and so that it's just that's what Australians do. We swim and where's the best place to swim? The beach.

Pete:
Yeah. Do you think there's something spiritual to it? Do you think there's something inside of us as humans?

Ian:
There is to me. There is for me. And I can't speak. There may well be. But yeah, I'm completely irreligious. But there's an inner spirituality to some experiences in life, and one is being on a beach. For me, it's just there's something about it. It it lifts your spirit if you. And that for me is what spirituality is. The other one is live music.

Pete:
Yeah. Okay.

Ian:
And, and listening...

Pete:
Connectivity with other people as well as the band who are playing.

Ian:
Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, being on a beach and yeah, some people say and the, well, the third one for me is, which I very rarely do now, is playing sport, actual physical activity of of doing a and not just going for a run. That's not terribly spiritual, but being in a race is.

Pete:
I remember, I remember having it when I was surfing, when I used to surf. I think there was one day that I was surfing in Ocean Grove Beach and there were dolphins. It was one of those days where the waves were really clean. It was very sort of like slow swell, and it was evening. So the sun was kind of setting, and I remember just sitting there and just being like, I get it. Like this is just yeah, you know, if you could hold this moment, it'd be a beautiful moment to be able to just live in.

Ian:
Even sometimes for me, you go for a walk and we live by the beach and I, I haven't been for a walk on the beach since we got home from Scotland, which is over a month ago.

Pete:
Yeah. What, it's because it's the middle of winter and it's pretty cold?

Ian:
Yes, but even that. But even you go to the beach. I could go to the beach today and it's probably 14, 15 degrees out there and it's not raining at the moment.

Pete:
In your, in your budgie smugglers?

Ian:
Budgie smugglers. And the boardies and, and, but just walking along the beach, walking on the beach, in the rain and the cold, it still has something about it. Whereas walking along a riverbank.

Pete:
Doesn't do it.

Ian:
Doesn't do it the same way.

Pete:
It's not as big an experience usually, right? Like when you're at a beach, it's kind of, it feels like the environment around you is quite large and you're small. Whereas I think when you're at a river, usually it's a little more enclosed. There's not as much bank to kind of work on. It's sort of like, here's the land, there's the water, and it's about a few metres wide and there's the other side. What about the night? And like a campfire or a fire of some kind?

Ian:
Yeah, fires...

Pete:
Evokes it.

Ian:
As fires are always good. And, and I think there is a deeply embedded spiritual thing in.

Pete:
We're drawn to the fire.

Ian:
We're drawn to fire because our our evolution has relied on it. We we could not have evolved as a species without being able to control fire.

Pete:
That's it. Food, defense.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Yeah. Being able to stay up later at night and work.

Ian:
Yeah. And so, you know, I think we are drawn to fire. And, and that control of fire. I mean, you notice that you're talking about going up to the farm and you notice with your kids. And I notice that with you when you were kids is this I want to be poking sticks in the fire.

Pete:
And just see what happens, yeah.

Ian:
And see what happens. I want to be playing with it. I want to be pushing the coals around.

Pete:
And that to me is almost that innate. And I want to learn how to use it.

Ian:
Your 96 year old grandfather is exactly the same.

Pete:
So I reckon it probably is an evolutionary thing where we're drawn to it because it enhanced our survival. If you were and if you interacted with fire more, you were more likely to survive.

Ian:
Yeah. And you and you had to know how to use it. Control it.

Pete:
You wonder if the first humans, there were a bunch that were like, we use fire and there were a whole bunch that were like, nah, not for me, mate.

Ian:
No, no.

Pete:
And you're like, good luck!

Ian:
Yeah, exactly.

Pete:
That's not my bag.

Ian:
No, no. Bloody hurts!

Pete:
Don't touch that. Can't sleep. It's too bright.

Ian:
Yeah. No. Campfires are great. But sometimes, as we've talked about for me, if I'm by myself just a bit of a pain because you gotta be carrying wood around and stuff, but.

Pete:
Do you reckon you're the type of person when you go camping that you take too much shit or not enough shit?

Ian:
I try and being in a small van and pretty limited. Yeah, you're pretty limited, so.

Pete:
Can't fit the canoe in there.

Ian:
Yeah, exactly. Can't fit Jo in there. We can. And two of us camping in there..

Pete:
On top of the car.

Ian:
Yeah. Two of us camping in there is, is, is doable.

Pete:
It's warmer.

Ian:
It's warm. Well, yeah, it's a problem in summer, but hey, she snores as much as I do. And I don't snore anymore because I've got the.

Pete:
Mouthpiece. Me, too. Yeah.

Ian:
Cause it works. So I try and take everything I need.

Pete:
The best part about. The best part, about the mouthpiece isn't the. That you don't snore anymore. It's that no one complains about your snoring anymore.

Ian:
Yes. Because. Yeah, other than sleep apnoea, when you wake yourself up, when you're snoring, you're asleep, so you don't know.

Pete:
The only reason I got it was that every morning I kept getting complaints from the kids and my wife. You're snoring all night! I'm sorry for rudely interrupting you.

Ian:
No, no. That's right. Yeah. So I try and take everything I need, but nothing I don't. And everything I need could be. I know I'm going to need some tools. I'm going to need some spare bits if something goes wrong with the car. Not that I'm a mechanic, but you know.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
But I can, you know, I can fix a door handle if it suddenly gets banged and it's falling off. So that sort of stuff. But I try not to take too much. There are other people I know that.

Pete:
Who are these people? What are you looking at me for?!

Ian:
No, no, no, we can't, we can't go camping because we can't tow a trailer that's big enough.

Pete:
Uh, yeah.

Ian:
Take everything with you. And I've never been a tower.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Other than boats. And I've never owned a boat. But, you know, working at, you know, university when we used to be, you know, out on boats. So you'd be towing boats around and stuff then. But, I, I don't, I understand why people like caravans because it's set and forget you can, you know, your house behind you when you get somewhere, you unhook and then you can.

Pete:
It's also more amenities, right?

Ian:
You got everything and you've got everything. Yeah. You can take your TV and your microwave and your...

Pete:
That's it. You got a toilet..

Ian:
Your heated blankets and yeah..

Pete:
They seem, I was going to say they seem to be two functions. Showers in, in Australian camping culture. There'll be those who have some kind of trailer or caravan that they're towing behind the car.

Ian:
Everything.

Pete:
And those that will have a tent or something on top of the car that they can unfold, and...

Ian:
A knife and fork and a plate.

Pete:
Yeah, exactly. So you fall into that second category, do you?

Ian:
Yeah. But but I'm, you know, getting old now. So I don't use tents anymore. So I've got the van, but it's.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Yeah, I did, I do tend to take as little as I think I can get away with, although I do carry a lot of camera gear.

Pete:
That's why you have to minimise everything else.

Ian:
Exactly. Sorry, can't fit the kitchen sink in. I need the camera bag.

Pete:
So what do you think is uniquely Australian about the camping experience here? When you think about camping in Australia, if you've been camping, say in Great Britain, you know you've been over there recently, you probably didn't go camping, go camping. But what do you think is different about it here compared to places like Great Britain or America?

Ian:
Well, there's I think it's very similar in lots of places. I don't think there's anything unique about Australian camping other than the the wildlife and the locations.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
You go camping in North America and you're going to be concerned about bears and cougars.

Pete:
I do not get Americans.

Ian:
Who go, Oh, I'm scared about your spiders!

Pete:
They have a fucking cry about snakes. Oh, everything is gonna kill you. Yeah, and then you'll see them just going for hikes with cougars and bears and buffalo and moose and all this shit. That's like. These are large land mammals.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
What? How are you not worried about this shit?

Ian:
I got attacked by a wallaby!

Pete:
How many- two people die a year from snake bites in Australia and they've got rattlesnakes.

Ian:
I know.

Pete:
Like, how are they not afraid? It just blows my mind.

Ian:
No, it's...

Pete:
I think it's just you. Anything you're not familiar with, it's from a different country. I'm not used to the idea of these creepy crawlies, but bears and cougars and. Oh, that's fine, mate. No worries. Whereas for me, it's the other way around.

Ian:
And it depends where you come from. In America, people who live in forests tend to be, you know, where you've got the bears and the cougars and stuff. They they tend to be more relaxed about it. But I remember I went on a, a four wheel drive trip, a four wheel drive tour, one day trip, when I was in the Grand Canyon years ago. And the guy who was the guide said, Ah, you're welcome to Arizona where everything will prick you, stick you, bite you, sting you, or make you sick if you eat it. So yeah, the desert in Arizona is. Yeah, everything will will do you damage. Whereas yeah, in most places, you know, like you can, you're much more likely to see a funnel web spider in the backyard in Sydney than you are to see a dangerous spider when you're out camping. Snakes are an issue, but if you're snake aware.

Pete:
Yes.

Ian:
And you're not crashing around in long grass and stuff...

Pete:
It's one of those things where..

Ian:
You're fine.

Pete:
The thing, though, that for me, it's like snakes and spiders inherently want to avoid you.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
As long as you're not a fucking idiot. Putting your hands under sticks and running around, rolling rocks over. Yeah. And just like, literally not giving the animals time to run away. If you're making them feel trapped, they're going to attack you. If you try killing them. When?

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
Just leave them alone and you'll let...

Ian:
People get bitten by snakes trying to kill them.

Pete:
Whereas with bears, cougars, they hunt you down.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
They're not, they're not trying to avoid you. They're trying to find you. They're trying to get into your car and eat your last half...

Ian:
That's right. Bears are going to rip the car apart.

Pete:
I know exactly. Oh, man.

Ian:
Yeah. So I think there's that element to it. The beach is something that is different in Australia because we all live well, most of us live so close to it. So I think people go camping at the beach more than camping out in the bush.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Whereas certainly in America, Americans version of camping is going to a mountain lake.

Pete:
Yeah. True. And they have more of them because of the last glacial maximum, right? With all of the ice sheets that came over the top of the continent.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
It ended up scraping out all these lakes.

Ian:
Lots of glacial lakes and things.

Pete:
That's it. When everything melted. We don't have the same sort of...

Ian:
In Britain, in Britain. My, my experience of holidaying in Britain, I've never lived there, is that it's not so much a camping experience. It's, the outdoor experience there is walking.

Pete:
Yeah. Okay.

Ian:
Everybody walks.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
It's like, yeah, well, you can walk from village to village. So so almost everywhere in southern from southern Scotland, South, you know, other than the big national parks where you can be out in the wilderness, in the mountains, but everywhere else, you know, it's ten miles to the next village.

Pete:
I was saying that to one of my students recently. I was saying like, is it weird for you living in Germany or Poland or Czech, where you could literally just walk in any direction and you'll be in another town? Like you just can't get lost?

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
There's no one dying of exposure getting lost in the middle of, you know, Slovakia, at least as far as I know.

Ian:
Unless they're up in the mountains somewhere.

Pete:
Exactly. But I imagine if you as long as you're not stupid, you can find your way out. Whereas in Australia you could drive probably half a day in most directions. And if you lost your car and you were stupid, you would be fucked. You know, if you didn't have any water or anything and you left the car, you'd be in trouble.

Ian:
Yeah. So but there's a, there's a definite camping culture in, and I've never been to South Africa, but I know lots of South Africans. South Africa is very similar to Australia in that sense of, you know, people will have all the camping gear and the setup and the and their holidays are very much around camping and going out in the bush and the beach and stuff. Less so in America. But I think the Americans, it's more around going to lakes and rivers and stuff. But you don't hear of people camping by beaches in America. And I think part of that problem is that the coast in America are so populated and the beaches are tend to be populated and private.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So you don't have national parks or little towns on you go to a you know, particularly on the East coast, you go to any town that's on the coast. Try getting to the beach. You end up having to pay $20 to go and park your car there.

Pete:
In America.

Ian:
In America, yeah.

Pete:
Far out.

Ian:
Yeah. It's crazy. So.

Pete:
What's your favourite Australian camping memory?

Ian:
Wilsons Promontory. First time I ever went there, I was 12 years old.

Pete:
So what happened?

Ian:
It was, you arrive. We. It was, I was with the, the Beaumaris Athletics Club, which no longer exists. I was a foundation member of it started when I was 12 and in our first year there we. Of the club we. The club captain. He wasn't the president, but he was the guy who started the club. He was a camper and they used to go to Wilsons Promontory a lot. And so about 30 of us went camping down there and I was a kid and went down with them. So, so there was a whole bunch of us between the ages of 12 and 40, that went down and so arrived there. And so it was an experience getting there. You're 12 years old and you're in somebody else's car and you got your mates with you and you're rattling around in the back of the car. You get there at night and all you hear is the surf.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And then you go, yeah, well, we got to pitch tomorrow. Yeah. And then, you know, then the next morning you run around and you go down to the beach and you're. Holy shit.

Pete:
Wilson's Prom beach is pretty cool, right?

Ian:
Tidal River, that. Yeah. Norman Bay beach is incredible.

Pete:
How many is it? Like 1 or 2km?

Ian:
About a kilometre. But but because it's got mountains around you.

Pete:
On either side, yeah.

Ian:
Yeah, on either side. And these huge granite boulders.

Pete:
Wow. Rock.

Ian:
And stuff. It's, it doesn't look that big. And so you look at it and go, the first time we were there, we got there, got there and went, let's, I'll race you to the end of the beach.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And you take off sprinting.

Pete:
And you're like, Oh shit.

Ian:
And you go... Overestimated, running for about 400m. And we haven't gotten any closer.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
So it's about a kilometre and a half I think.

Pete:
Is that Mount Oberon right there that has this huge escarpment or like.

Ian:
Yeah, huge.

Pete:
Granite, exposed rock at the top of the volcano. Yeah.

Ian:
Yeah. So it's. Yeah, that place and it's just magical and it's still my favourite place in the world.

Pete:
Yeah, it is pretty cool. What's the most Aussie camping experience you've ever had?

Ian:
The most Aussie camping...

Pete:
Yeah, I've got a good one here.

Ian:
The most Aussie camping experience I think is not one that I've ever had.

Pete:
Okay.

Ian:
And that's the, and I'll, I'll use the a particular place, but it's generic of a lot of places. The foreshore at Rosebud which is on the, you know, Port Phillip on the Bay, on the Mornington Peninsula and camping there is, you are cheek by jowl camped and people have the same campsite every year, every summer they go down there in their caravans and their tents and everything else. And that's their camping experience. And they go down. So they, they have their, their neighbours that they go to or their camping neighbours. And so it's just this little community that arrives there and lasts 4 to 8 weeks during the summer and then disappears again for the rest of the year. So I've never done that and I don't have...

Pete:
So they actually stay there for four to eight weeks? Or the community's there for 4 to 8 weeks.

Ian:
The people will just go there and stay there for that the whole time. Or because it's so close to Melbourne and they're usually people from Melbourne, then they'll come, they'll go and set up in November and they'll unpack it in February, but they'll be down. They'll be down for the school holiday period and then weekends and things. But, but they just have the sites booked for the whole time.

Pete:
Yeah. Wow.

Ian:
So that's a very typical experience of some people, but I don't like it much. But the classic Australian camping experience I think, is you go somewhere and you go out in the bush and you.

Pete:
Yeah, I think it's. Yeah. Well I was going to say the the memory that I have specifically is about getting chased off the pier by a wombat into the river.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
At Wilsons Prom!

Ian:
Wilsons Prom, again! Wilsons, it's the highlight of everything. Remember that wombat chasing you down the path?

Pete:
Yeah, well, I remember, I think, I think how old would I been? 8 or 9?

Ian:
Eight?

Pete:
And I remember the wombats that would come out. So you would see like the the mums and their babies and they sort of just wander around the campsite looking for food, you know, and we were...

Ian:
Well, their food is grass.

Pete:
Yeah. Well, yeah, we're walking down this, this boardwalk. Right. A wooden boardwalk near the, near the river with the river on one side and the sand or the, you know, the campground on the other side. And the wombats were on there. And I remember chasing one of them. I think I may have asked you like, what's gonna happen? Is it gonna attack me? You're like, no, it's fine.

Ian:
Just go though.

Pete:
And so I chased it and it stopped moving and turned around.

Ian:
And chased you!

Pete:
And chased me. And I ran into the water off the end of a foot deep water. And the other one was, we went to Wilsons Prom years later when I was at university. We were going on like a four day hike around it. And I remember I was staying there in a tent with a guy called Jesus. It was his nickname, his name, his first name was Rob, but there were a bunch of Rob's. So there was one nicknamed God and one called Jesus because of his hair.

Ian:
As you would.

Pete:
Yeah. And, I remember we, we went for a walk and then came back and there was all this rustling inside the tent and Jesus was like, fuck, not again, and just ran over to the tent and out he came wrestling a wombat. Get out of the bread, you bastard. And and he grabbed it out, accidentally let go of it, and it just ran straight back into the tent and was just like.

Ian:
They're wombats! If you want to find an animal that should have tattooed on the back of its head, I don't give a shit. It's wombats. They just tunnel visioned. When they have something on their mind, they're going to go for it. My favourite story about wombats is I don't know whether you remember the holiday we had down there where we went camping. We stayed in one of their new. They built some new cabins. And we, we stayed in those.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And it was, they just opened it and they'd done all the landscaping around it. And I was talking to one of the rangers the next day when there was a wombat hole on the inside of this wombat proof fence they had built. And he just said, little bastards. He said they, they built this. The. So they dug a metre down in the fence and and a and a metre out. They'd actually dug this trench that was two metres wide and a metre deep.

Pete:
Put the fence in there.

Ian:
And they had and they had put fencing wire, as in, you know, chicken wire, so mesh fence, um horizontally and then vertically in it. And then they, and then they built the fence back, filled it in and built the fence up from that. So they figured there's no way a wombat is going to dig under this because they wanted to. The there were as soon as they built the cabins, silver gulls started breeding.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Under the cabins.

Pete:
They got violent when they're breeding and having nests.

Ian:
And, and so they didn't want the wombats in there disturbing them, but they also wanted to landscape it. And they didn't want the wombats in there digging them up and eating the new plants. And so they, they went to this huge expense. The first night a wombat has gone to the fence, dug down, dug back out, dug under the thing two metres up, and popped up the other side in one night they had got through this thing and he...

Pete:
Next challenge please!

Ian:
Yes. So wombats, they just they. I don't give a shit what you do. I'm going to get on to the other side of this fence.

Pete:
Oh, man. One of the other memories I had was, I can't remember where we were camping. It was in the forest somewhere. There were big eucalyptus. It was raining quite a bit, and I remember waking up in the middle of the night. And freaking. Freaking the fuck out.

Ian:
I know where that was.

Pete:
Where was it?

Ian:
It was. It's now called Bungle National Park, I think, or Budj Bim National Park.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
It is Mount Eccles, down in the Western District of Victoria.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
And so yeah. And, and you also get bitten by a bull ant.

Pete:
Yeah. That was why I was bringing it up as well. We camped on a bull ants nest and I went out in the night because I had to take a leak.

Ian:
Yeah. Well we went and setting up at night.

Pete:
Yeah, I had to, I had to urinate. I had to go out and have a slash. And I think on the way back I.

Ian:
Stepped on.

Pete:
Stepped on bull ants and got stung up the leg. That was unfucking pleasant.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
Why do you think they're called bull ants?

Ian:
Yeah. Exactly.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
Yeah. So yeah, that was at that down at that national park.

Pete:
Yeah. Google, do yourself a favour. If you want to be freaked out and have a listen to koalas, especially male koalas.

Ian:
Male koalas.

Pete:
Male koala call. It is fucking horrifying, especially when you just hear that echoing through the night.

Ian:
Brushtail possums.

Pete:
Yeah. What is with marsupials? And these are like kind of sounds that they make.

Ian:
Because they don't vocalise.

Pete:
Yeah.

Ian:
They, their only vocalisations of these sort of grunting things. They don't. There's no..

Pete:
It's terrifying!

Ian:
You listen to deer and. Rabbits.

Pete:
Yeah, exactly.

Ian:
Wombats make no sound.

Pete:
No.

Ian:
Except [Ian making animal sounds].

Pete:
Yeah. It's just these guttural grunts. Same with kangaroos.

Ian:
Yeah. Kangaroo- kangaroos grind their teeth.

Pete:
Yeah, they do that too. But they'll also grunt at you.

Ian:
Yeah.

Pete:
But, yeah, Google it man. It was horrifying. I remember just it echoing through the campsite and.

Ian:
Can you imagine, imagine the first Europeans that arrived in Sydney Cove or, you know, at Botany Bay when they first got there for a few days, and there and there, you know, they were being sleeping in the ship at the time. But the first ones that decided they were going to get out and...

Pete:
Well, they would have known nothing about it. And there was no education...

Ian:
No noise.

Pete:
No one would have known...

Ian:
Because during the day you don't see anything.

Pete:
Yeah, yeah...

Ian:
There might be a kangaroo hopping around somewhere, but you know, and you think...

Pete:
What the fuck is happening?

Ian:
Bunyips!

Pete:
Yeah, exactly. Well, that's probably where the myth came from. You know, large megafauna that went extinct or the large animals making noises at night. Yeah. All right, well, we should probably finish up with some rapid fire questions then, Dad. Been going for about an hour. This one's going to be a tough one for you. Beach or bush?

Ian:
Beach.

Pete:
Tent or caravan?

Ian:
No.

Pete:
Not any more.

Ian:
Small camper van, but tent.

Pete:
Yeah. Sunrise or sunset?

Ian:
Sunrise.

Pete:
Oh, really? Okay. Campfire or ocean? I don't know how that's. They're not opposites, but.

Ian:
No. Yeah. Campfire by the ocean?

Pete:
Yeah. Tea or coffee?

Ian:
No! Beer.

Pete:
You gotta choose one, Dad.

Ian:
Beer.

Pete:
Yeah. That's it. Swag or tent? We've done that. Rain or tent? Rain on a tent or waves in the background?

Ian:
Oh, waves in the background.

Pete:
Yeah. Mountains or coastline?

Ian:
Coastline?

Pete:
Both. Got a lawn?

Ian:
Yeah. Go to Wilsons Promontory.

Pete:
Yeah. Get both. One night or one week?

Ian:
One- two weeks.

Pete:
Two weeks?

Ian:
As long as I possibly can, but not necessarily in the same place. So I do road trip camping as well, where I might go away for ten days and I'll stay at eight different places.

Pete:
Yeah. So you sort of like enjoy the short periods of time at a lot of places in a row.

Ian:
Yes.

Pete:
And, campfire breakfast or barbecue dinner?

Ian:
Barbecue dinner.

Pete:
Why is that?

Ian:
Because I tend not to eat steak for breakfast.

Pete:
And I just want steak.

Ian:
Yeah. I don't mind campfire breakfasts, but yeah, I just tend not to have campfires. But if you're talking about this, yeah, a cooked breakfast, whether it's on a campfire or on a gas stove or an electric hot plate, I'd still prefer a barbecue dinner.

Pete:
Good job. All right, well, the questions here for listeners, I guess to get in touch and let us know about, what's one tiny camping moment that instantly makes you feel relaxed if and when you go camping? And if you've never been camping, what's your idea of the perfect peaceful place then instead?

Ian:
And why wouldn't you go camping? What's stopping you from going...

Pete:
All those creepy crawlies that are out there?

Ian:
Yeah. And grizzly bears.

Pete:
Koalas. Anyway, thanks for joining us guys, and we will see you next time.

Ian:
Bye!

Pete:
Tooroo!